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Author Topic: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria  (Read 8891 times)

tacchino

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2008, 07:52:09 PM »
"They believe, incorrectly, that morality has anything to do with the law. It doesn't. The law (good law, anyway) is amoral and that's why it works so well."

Just thought I'd comment on this statement.  While law and morality are not necessarily synonymous at all, it is a fallacy to state that law is "amoral."  For example, read any of the majority opinions of Supreme Court decisions upholding various jurisdictions' laws that restrict or limit certain kinds of "adult" entertainment.  Many of those opinions rely upon a recognition of a compelling government interest in upholding certain community standards or communal values that override an individual right to pursue those entertainments.  Those community standards and values reference directly the moral standards of the community.  You could also look at court decisions regarding laws concerning contraception; the reasoning is similar in a number of cases.

Of course, community standards and morals evolve and change, as communal understanding of the values and morals that support that particular society.  And the law can change to reflect this.  But to state that "good" law is amoral is not accurate. 

That being said, the OP should probably consider a broader range of institutions that have a religious sponsorship that would enable him to engage his beliefs with his legal studies, and provide an environment conducive to his own spiritual and intellectual development.  I'd also suggest looking at St. Thomas University's law school in Minneapolis; its religious identity is promoted as central to its mission.  It is also fairly well respected.

kilroy55

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2008, 08:01:19 PM »
Wow, I am amazed at all the 0Ls giving so much advice on something they no little about.  Go where you want and look up stuff for yourself.  I would ignore the advice of people who have never worked a day as an attorney.  Good luck to you!

I fail to see how working a day as an attorney has anything to do with determining that the OP is shooting himself in the foot by deliberately going to a school that he is way overqualified for and that will likely handcuff his longterm career prospects.

Really, he should probably ignore our advice and do what he thinks is best. It is his life and making decisions that can potentially harm you is a part of life. But, he asked for it, and we're giving it. You don't exactly post on this board because you want a lot of sound advice, just advice.

It's simple.  Do you have any idea where graduates of the schools he has listed work?  Have you ever practiced with any of them?  Do you practice in an area where you have been exposed to Regent graduates or Ave Marie graduates (I point to these two because Liberty only recently has graduates, so we have no idea what type of attorneys they will make)?  What do you know, in fact, about these schools other than they were founded by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the founder of Dominoes Pizza?  You assume he will have a difficult time finding a job in what he wants to do.  Do you know this for sure?  Do you practice in Virginia or Michigan?  Perhaps he is making a great career choice.  Perhaps, the area he wants to live in has quitea few graduates from those schools.  Maybe the local DAs office in his county is filled with Regent grads and he could get a job if he does well.  You wouldn't think it, but I can name two Pennsylvania counties filled with nothing but Widner-Harrisburg graduates in their DAs Officer.  They like to kick higher ranked school attorneys around the court room on a regular basis.  I mean, I point these things about because BIGLAW which so many of you on this board covet, is having problems recently.  Seems lots of attorneys are being laid off all over the place -- big, small and medium firms all over.  Perhaps a devotion to public service is what he wants and the financially smart move for him.

Just because, some people want to be exposed to broad ranging points of view does not mean everyone wants to be.  Many people, lawyers included, like to be surrounded with like minded people.  That is why so many firms are riddled with complete assholes.  Perhaps, he wants to be around individuals who may hold similar beliefs, because in that environment he would feel most comfortable which will enable him to perform better in courses.  

All I am pointing out is there are more considerations to be given than just the arbitrary number on a US news ranking list.  Yes, graduating from Harvard opens all sorts of doors.  Everyone knows this.  But outside the T14, life is hard for anyone who isn't in the top half, third or tenth in a class.  If you need more evidence, I can give you names of plenty of graduates of T1 and T2 schools still looking for permanent work.  I also will point out that someone who has never been to law school and never applied for post-graduate or summer jobs should limit their "advice" to areas they know something about.  You could be reading this board next summer lamenting how no one hired you for pay or at all.  Or, you could have washed out of school all together.  But as you say, he asked.

PS to my fellow nittany lion zuckpsu -- good luck on the bar.  I too should be studying, but after 10 hours I'm a little spent.  Good luck!  

Ninja1

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2008, 08:15:30 PM »
"They believe, incorrectly, that morality has anything to do with the law. It doesn't. The law (good law, anyway) is amoral and that's why it works so well."

Just thought I'd comment on this statement.  While law and morality are not necessarily synonymous at all, it is a fallacy to state that law is "amoral."  For example, read any of the majority opinions of Supreme Court decisions upholding various jurisdictions' laws that restrict or limit certain kinds of "adult" entertainment.  Many of those opinions rely upon a recognition of a compelling government interest in upholding certain community standards or communal values that override an individual right to pursue those entertainments.  Those community standards and values reference directly the moral standards of the community.  You could also look at court decisions regarding laws concerning contraception; the reasoning is similar in a number of cases.

Of course, community standards and morals evolve and change, as communal understanding of the values and morals that support that particular society.  And the law can change to reflect this.  But to state that "good" law is amoral is not accurate. 

That being said, the OP should probably consider a broader range of institutions that have a religious sponsorship that would enable him to engage his beliefs with his legal studies, and provide an environment conducive to his own spiritual and intellectual development.  I'd also suggest looking at St. Thomas University's law school in Minneapolis; its religious identity is promoted as central to its mission.  It is also fairly well respected.

I do agree that law does take into account communal morals and standards, but at the same time, good law is usually law that doesn't have to be reworked every 20 years. My original statement is a bit overreaching, but I think an ideal set of laws is amoral and more or less fixed. I guess idealism doesn't always win out though.
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dsetterl

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2008, 08:21:23 PM »

 I wrote a paper summarising the general premises of the argument, and would be willing to share if that interests you more.


I was waiting for this. lol. Divine Command Theory does pose a really weird dilemma especially in application to morality and what is good. I love this discussion, too bad we are not in the same room, its fascinating stuff.

Ninja1

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2008, 08:33:41 PM »
Wow, I am amazed at all the 0Ls giving so much advice on something they no little about.  Go where you want and look up stuff for yourself.  I would ignore the advice of people who have never worked a day as an attorney.  Good luck to you!

I fail to see how working a day as an attorney has anything to do with determining that the OP is shooting himself in the foot by deliberately going to a school that he is way overqualified for and that will likely handcuff his longterm career prospects.

Really, he should probably ignore our advice and do what he thinks is best. It is his life and making decisions that can potentially harm you is a part of life. But, he asked for it, and we're giving it. You don't exactly post on this board because you want a lot of sound advice, just advice.

It's simple.  Do you have any idea where graduates of the schools he has listed work?  Have you ever practiced with any of them?  Do you practice in an area where you have been exposed to Regent graduates or Ave Marie graduates (I point to these two because Liberty only recently has graduates, so we have no idea what type of attorneys they will make)?  What do you know, in fact, about these schools other than they were founded by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the founder of Dominoes Pizza?  You assume he will have a difficult time finding a job in what he wants to do.  Do you know this for sure?  Do you practice in Virginia or Michigan?  Perhaps he is making a great career choice.  Perhaps, the area he wants to live in has quitea few graduates from those schools.  Maybe the local DAs office in his county is filled with Regent grads and he could get a job if he does well.  You wouldn't think it, but I can name two Pennsylvania counties filled with nothing but Widner-Harrisburg graduates in their DAs Officer.  They like to kick higher ranked school attorneys around the court room on a regular basis.  I mean, I point these things about because BIGLAW which so many of you on this board covet, is having problems recently.  Seems lots of attorneys are being laid off all over the place -- big, small and medium firms all over.  Perhaps a devotion to public service is what he wants and the financially smart move for him.

Just because, some people want to be exposed to broad ranging points of view does not mean everyone wants to be.  Many people, lawyers included, like to be surrounded with like minded people.  That is why so many firms are riddled with complete assholes.  Perhaps, he wants to be around individuals who may hold similar beliefs, because in that environment he would feel most comfortable which will enable him to perform better in courses. 

All I am pointing out is there are more considerations to be given than just the arbitrary number on a US news ranking list.  Yes, graduating from Harvard opens all sorts of doors.  Everyone knows this.  But outside the T14, life is hard for anyone who isn't in the top half, third or tenth in a class.  If you need more evidence, I can give you names of plenty of graduates of T1 and T2 schools still looking for permanent work.  I also will point out that someone who has never been to law school and never applied for post-graduate or summer jobs should limit their "advice" to areas they know something about.  You could be reading this board next summer lamenting how no one hired you for pay or at all.  Or, you could have washed out of school all together.  But as you say, he asked.

PS to my fellow nittany lion zuckpsu -- good luck on the bar.  I too should be studying, but after 10 hours I'm a little spent.  Good luck! 

No one ever said that our OP won't be able to find work and is going to starve to death because he went to one of the schools in question. All that most everyone is saying is that by going to any of said schools, he is going to limit himself in a way that would simply not happen if he went somewhere better. You don't have to be an attorney to read the employment data that comes from these schools and understand the virtue of an entrenched alumni network.

No one will seriously dispute that some people from these schools do very well, a good number do fine enough, and some folks from better schools do have problems. However, like I said, we can read the data. All available data says that he is not going to have as good of a shot at anything coming out of one of these schools as he would if he went somewhere else.

It basically boils down to if OP wants to stack the deck in his favor as much as he can, he should go to a better school unless he knows he can finish at or very near the top of his class. About the only time that is not true is if he gets a full, guaranteed ride to one of these schools. It's always hard to argue with 0 debt.

Anyway, most importantly, good luck with your bar. It's pretty soon, isn't it?
I'mma stay bumpin' till I bump my head on my tomb.

DontQuestionMe

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2008, 12:03:58 AM »
I've never worked at the Federal Reserve and I wasn't a finance or econ major, but I still understand how the monetary system works. I'm not a physicist, but I still understand how nuclear weapons work. I don't own stock, but I can tell you how the market functions. I've never been to Africa, but I can still tell you 200 reasons not to go there. You can actually learn things without doing them. It's called research. It's a pretty fundamental part of a decent education and something that should have came up once or twice during your time in UG. Additionally, I, like a good number of the people here, have several friends in law school and know a few attorneys. This isn't exactly an uninformed opinion that I've developed.

Since you know a doctor and have watched the Discovery Channel, will you please perform open-heart surgery on me?  ::)

Ninja1

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2008, 03:09:25 AM »
I've never worked at the Federal Reserve and I wasn't a finance or econ major, but I still understand how the monetary system works. I'm not a physicist, but I still understand how nuclear weapons work. I don't own stock, but I can tell you how the market functions. I've never been to Africa, but I can still tell you 200 reasons not to go there. You can actually learn things without doing them. It's called research. It's a pretty fundamental part of a decent education and something that should have came up once or twice during your time in UG. Additionally, I, like a good number of the people here, have several friends in law school and know a few attorneys. This isn't exactly an uninformed opinion that I've developed.

Please don't go to law school. You're entirely too stupid to be involved in the legal profession.

Since you know a doctor and have watched the Discovery Channel, will you please perform open-heart surgery on me?  ::)

Again, you're an idiot. Seriously, no more responses for you.
I'mma stay bumpin' till I bump my head on my tomb.

dsetterl

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2008, 09:53:10 AM »
I will perform open-heart surgery on you. I told you I wrote a paper on everything

snickersnicker

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2008, 07:35:54 PM »
I'd like to see your paper. Is it online? If so, could you perhaps PM me? Otherwise I can provide an email.
Quote

By email would be best. For some reason I have trouble accessing the webspace my school provides me with from home, and can't upload it.
LSAT: 166 (:()
UGPA: 4
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dsetterl

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Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2008, 09:55:20 PM »
I would like to send you my paper, but it is too large to send over the internet. Since it contains all the information of this universe and beyond, the page number itself is simply too large a number for your brain to comprehend.