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What political party do you belong to?

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What political party do most law students belong to?

Remedialone

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Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2008, 03:39:16 PM »
Let's not forget we used mass propaganda to get us into this war and had rape rooms as well.
ORLY?

http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/09/soldiers.charged/index.html

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/8421

Now I know, the next argument.... they weren't rape rooms, we used them for torture too.

There is a HUGE difference between solders breaking the law and raping detainees and government sanctioned rape rooms. Rape happens everyday in the U.S, does that mean that it is  the fault of the government? If someone gets raped by a government employee in a government building, does that mean that the government set up rape rooms? C'mon, these solders broke the law and will be punished. Comparing isolated crimes committed by solders to government sanctioned rape rooms is not prudent, it is a base argument that cheapens the real victims of such atrocities.

Is that why the government backed off the line "sadam was evil he had rape rooms."  Why wouldn't they just say these Several incidences of sodomy and rape are not indicative of our policies but are in no means as bad as the Rape rooms they had."  They stopped spouting the BS because they knew it wasn't true.

Are you really making this argument? You're comparing solders committing crimes (which they will be prosecuted for) to actual rape rooms set up by Saddam? Rape is dehumanizing crime almost as bad as murder to some people, accusing the government of administering of even condoning rape is despicable. Backing off the line about Saddam having rape rooms is no expression of guilt and trying to explain it would just be guessing. The truth is, rape has been used as a torture device for all of human history. If you have ever read accounts of Holocaust or African victims accounts of rape rooms than you wouldn't be so quick to accuse the government of setting them up unless you were sure of it.

By your rationale most independent observers have said that the rape rooms were operated by Uday and not Saddam.  So it is ok then right?  Saddam shouldn't be held accountable for something we cannot connect him to.  In terms of being certain I am certain enough in my claims to say that the US government turned a blind eye to the atrocities and in some cases encouraged them. 

Remedialone

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Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2008, 03:41:51 PM »
Let's not forget we used mass propaganda to get us into this war and had rape rooms as well.
ORLY?

http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/09/soldiers.charged/index.html

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/8421

Now I know, the next argument.... they weren't rape rooms, we used them for torture too.

There is a HUGE difference between solders breaking the law and raping detainees and government sanctioned rape rooms. Rape happens everyday in the U.S, does that mean that it is  the fault of the government? If someone gets raped by a government employee in a government building, does that mean that the government set up rape rooms? C'mon, these solders broke the law and will be punished. Comparing isolated crimes committed by solders to government sanctioned rape rooms is not prudent, it is a base argument that cheapens the real victims of such atrocities.

Is that why the government backed off the line "sadam was evil he had rape rooms."  Why wouldn't they just say these Several incidences of sodomy and rape are not indicative of our policies but are in no means as bad as the Rape rooms they had."  They stopped spouting the BS because they knew it wasn't true.

Are you really making this argument? You're comparing solders committing crimes (which they will be prosecuted for) to actual rape rooms set up by Saddam? Rape is dehumanizing crime almost as bad as murder to some people, accusing the government of administering of even condoning rape is despicable. Backing off the line about Saddam having rape rooms is no expression of guilt and trying to explain it would just be guessing. The truth is, rape has been used as a torture device for all of human history. If you have ever read accounts of Holocaust or African victims accounts of rape rooms than you wouldn't be so quick to accuse the government of setting them up unless you were sure of it.

By your rationale most independent observers have said that the rape rooms were operated by Uday and not Saddam.  So it is ok then right?  Saddam shouldn't be held accountable for something we cannot connect him to.  In terms of being certain I am certain enough in my claims to say that the US government turned a blind eye to the atrocities and in some cases encouraged them. 

Saddam's torture chambers and gassing of the Kurds was a result of the civil war in Iraq, he shouldn't be held accountable for crimes committed during a war and we have no way of knowing whether or not he specified to torture the Iraqis or gas the kurds.

Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2008, 05:15:15 PM »


Saddam's torture chambers and gassing of the Kurds was a result of the civil war in Iraq, he shouldn't be held accountable for crimes committed during a war and we have no way of knowing whether or not he specified to torture the Iraqis or gas the kurds.

I'm sorry, but did you just say that Saddamm Hussein shouldn't be held accountable for crimes committed during a war?
Weren't you just advocating doing exactly that with Bush?
Now you have me confused.
Abu Gharib was not an example of systemic failure.  It is an example of what happens when national guardsmen and reservists get called to active duty.  And it isn't an example of our government ignoring or forgiving improper behavior.  It was well investigated and all responsible parties served jail time and/or were dishonorably discharged.
So far, nothing you've said makes much sense.  We should pull out of Iraq because it is expensive.  We shouldn't fight wars we feel are just (and that pass scrutiny with overwhelming support from Congress).  We should just let people do whatever they want and keep our noses out of it.
I would LOVE to see any evidence you can provide, and I mean ANY evidence, that the US owns, operates, or uses rape rooms.
And Saddam can directly be linked to the rape rooms.  They were in his palaces and the well known practice was to round up entire families of people believed to be against the government and rape the mother while the husband and children were forced to watch.
If any of the children were female, they too were raped in front of their parents and their siblings.  Often, Uday (a government agent with loads of official government power) would round up girls he thought were pretty and chain them in the rape rooms for his own sick pleasure (and that of his friends).  When the Iraqi olympic soccer team did poorly, they were beaten for days.  By government officials, in government buildings.
How people like you manage to come up with moral equivalencies is beyond me.
And, for the record, you are wrong about Illinois politics as well.  While Ryan was in fact convicted of illegalities, the overwhelming bulk of illegal activities, corruption, and convictions have been by Democrats.
Here's a list:

Auditor of Public Accounts Orville Hodge (R) pleaded guilty to bank fraud, embezzlement and forgery and was sentenced to 15 years in prison in 1956
Illinois Governor Otto Kerner (D-IL) was convicted of bribery, conspiracy, income-tax evasion, mail fraud and perjury in connection with money he earned from racetrack stock (1973)
Illinois Secretary of State Paul Powell (D-IL) was found with $800,000 in cash in a shoebox in his hotel room. He died in 1970 and was never convicted (1970)
Illinois former Governor Daniel Walker (D-IL) convicted (1987) of wrongdoing in connection with Savings & Loan and sentenced to federal penitentiary
Illinois Operation Greylord, involving influence peddling and bribery of Circuit Court judges (1980s)
Illinois state representative James DeLeo (D-IL) caught in the "Operation Greylord" investigation of corruption in Cook County. He was indicted by a federal grand jury for taking bribes and negotiated guilty plea on a misdemeanor tax offense, and was placed on probation (1992)
Illinois state representative Joe Kotlarz (D-IL) convicted and sentenced to jail for theft and conspiracy for pocketing in about $200,000 for a sale of state land to a company he once served as legal counsel (1997)
Illinois state senator Bruce A. Farley (D-IL) sentenced to 18 months in prison for mail fraud (1999)
Illinois state senator John A. D’Arco Jr. (D-IL) served about 3 years in prison for bribery and extortion (1995)
Illinois Chicago alderman Lawrence S. Bloom (D) sentenced to 6 months in 1999 for filing a false tax return.
Illinois Chicago alderman Jesse J. Evans (D) sentenced to 41 months in prison in 1997 for racketeering, extortion, conspiracy, attempted extortion, mail fraud, influence peddling, filing false tax returns, and obstruction of justice.
Illinois Chicago alderman Virgil E. Jones Jr. (D) in 1999 was sentenced to 2 and a half years in prison for extortion.
Illinois Chicago alderman Joseph A. Martínez (D) in 1998 pleaded guilty to ghost payrolling and was sentenced to 5 months in prison.
Illinois Chicago alderman Ambrosio Medrano (D) pleaded guilty to extortion in 1996 and was sentenced to 30 months in prison.
Illinois Chicago alderman Allan J. Streeter (D) pleaded guilty to extortion and filing false income tax returns and was sentenced to prison in 1998.
Illinois Chicago alderman Fred B. Roti (D) was sentenced to 48 months in 1993 for racketeering, conspiracy, bribery, among other things.
Illinois Chicago judge Thomas J. Maloney Jr. (D) sentenced to almost 16 years in prison for taking bribes, extortion and obstruction of justice in 1994.
Illinois Chicago treasurer Edward Rosewell (D) pleaded guilty to mail fraud but was not sentenced due to an illness that he died from soon after. His conviction was vacated in 1999.
Illinois State Treasurer Jerry Cosentino (D-IL) was convicted on federal check kiting charges (1992).
Illinois Chicago alderman Percy Giles (D) sentenced to 3 years in prison for racketeering, extortion, among other things in 2000.
Illinois Chicago alderman Arenda Troutman (D-IL) was arrested and charged with bribery in 2007.
Illinois Chicago City clerk Jim Laski (D) pleaded guilty to pocketing bribes for steering city business to trucking companies (2006).
Illinois Chicago Hired Truck Program
Illinois Governor George H. Ryan (R-IL) involved in sale of government licenses and contracts while he was Secretary of State
Illinois Governor Lennington Small (R-IL), associate of Al Capone, embezzled, sold pardons, etc., but was never convicted
Image:CoughlinandKenna.jpg
Chicago alderman "Bathhouse John" CoughlinIllinois Chicago alderman "Bathhouse John" Coughlin graft operation with fellow alderman Michael "Hinky Dink" Kenna, the so-called "Lords of the Levee" extracting protection payments from gambling and prostitution.
Illinois Chicago Mayor William Hale Thompson (R), years of ongoing corruption
Illinois Chicago city clerk Walter S. Kozubowski (D) was sentenced to 5 years in prison for mail fraud.
Illinois Chicago alderman John S. Madrzyk (D) sentenced to 41 months in prison for mail fraud.
Illinois Chicago City Treasurer Miriam Santos (D) originally sentenced to 40 months for extortion and mail fraud but the sentence was overturned on appeal. She subsequently pleaded guilty to mail fraud and sentenced to 3 months, only served 17 days in prison.
Illinois Secretary of State Jesse White (D-IL) introduced secretary and friend Donna Lumpkins Floyd to numerous legislators, and encouraged them to give $175,000 of the taxpayers' money to her charity. However, there was no charity, and Floyd said that White destroyed all transaction records. After an investigation, the Illinois State Board of Elections fined White $800,000.
Gus Savage (D-IL) accused of trying to force himself on a female Peace Corps worker in Zaire (1989)
Henry Hyde (R-IL) - "youthful indiscretion" (1998)


5.  5 Republicans out of that whole list.  The rest?  All democrats.  Stop dreaming.  Wake up.  Illinois politics is dirty, dirty, dirty and at the heart of it all, with just a few exceptions, is the democrat party.  Why make up fiction when truth is so much more interesting?
Of course, I'm not implying that all democrats are dirty, but in illinois history, they sure have been.
Yes, George Ryan was convicted.  But he was only the most publicized, not an example of the norm.  And wouldn't you know it, Blagojevich is under federal investigation.  Let me check to see what his party affiliation is....
Democrat.


TimMitchell

Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2008, 05:19:12 PM »
Quote
Saddam's torture chambers and gassing of the Kurds was a result of the civil war in Iraq, he shouldn't be held accountable for crimes committed during a war and we have no way of knowing whether or not he specified to torture the Iraqis or gas the kurds.

By your rationale most independent observers have said that the rape rooms were operated by Uday and not Saddam.  So it is ok then right?  Saddam shouldn't be held accountable for something we cannot connect him to.  In terms of being certain I am certain enough in my claims to say that the US government turned a blind eye to the atrocities and in some cases encouraged them.

Ok, you are confusing the difference between the head of state having knowledge about something and the government orchestrating it. If a General in Iraq set up rape rooms and purposefully hid it from the President, then I would still consider it the government's doing (albeit unknowingly). If A colonel rapes an Iraqi woman, that is a crime attributed to that individual.

Claiming that the US government turned a blind eye and encouraged some of these cases is unverifiable and inconsistant with the evidence that is available. It is simply your opinion and nothing else.

TimMitchell

Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2008, 05:22:51 PM »
Quote
Illinois Secretary of State Paul Powell (D-IL) was found with $800,000 in cash in a shoebox in his hotel room. He died in 1970 and was never convicted (1970)

Shaq's shoebox?

Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2008, 05:31:24 PM »
Quote
Illinois Secretary of State Paul Powell (D-IL) was found with $800,000 in cash in a shoebox in his hotel room. He died in 1970 and was never convicted (1970)

Shaq's shoebox?

That had to be a big shoebox....

Remedialone

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Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2008, 05:38:59 PM »

I'm sorry, but did you just say that Saddamm Hussein shouldn't be held accountable for crimes committed during a war?
Weren't you just advocating doing exactly that with Bush?
Now you have me confused.
Abu Gharib was not an example of systemic failure.  It is an example of what happens when national guardsmen and reservists get called to active duty.  And it isn't an example of our government ignoring or forgiving improper behavior.  It was well investigated and all responsible parties served jail time and/or were dishonorably discharged.
So far, nothing you've said makes much sense.  We should pull out of Iraq because it is expensive.  We shouldn't fight wars we feel are just (and that pass scrutiny with overwhelming support from Congress).  We should just let people do whatever they want and keep our noses out of it.
I would LOVE to see any evidence you can provide, and I mean ANY evidence, that the US owns, operates, or uses rape rooms.
And Saddam can directly be linked to the rape rooms.  They were in his palaces and the well known practice was to round up entire families of people believed to be against the government and rape the mother while the husband and children were forced to watch.
If any of the children were female, they too were raped in front of their parents and their siblings.  Often, Uday (a government agent with loads of official government power) would round up girls he thought were pretty and chain them in the rape rooms for his own sick pleasure (and that of his friends).  When the Iraqi olympic soccer team did poorly, they were beaten for days.  By government officials, in government buildings.
How people like you manage to come up with moral equivalencies is beyond me.
And, for the record, you are wrong about Illinois politics as well.  While Ryan was in fact convicted of illegalities, the overwhelming bulk of illegal activities, corruption, and convictions have been by Democrats.
Here's a list:

Auditor of Public Accounts Orville Hodge (R) pleaded guilty to bank fraud, embezzlement and forgery and was sentenced to 15 years in prison in 1956
Illinois Governor Otto Kerner (D-IL) was convicted of bribery, conspiracy, income-tax evasion, mail fraud and perjury in connection with money he earned from racetrack stock (1973)
Illinois Secretary of State Paul Powell (D-IL) was found with $800,000 in cash in a shoebox in his hotel room. He died in 1970 and was never convicted (1970)
Illinois former Governor Daniel Walker (D-IL) convicted (1987) of wrongdoing in connection with Savings & Loan and sentenced to federal penitentiary
Illinois Operation Greylord, involving influence peddling and bribery of Circuit Court judges (1980s)
Illinois state representative James DeLeo (D-IL) caught in the "Operation Greylord" investigation of corruption in Cook County. He was indicted by a federal grand jury for taking bribes and negotiated guilty plea on a misdemeanor tax offense, and was placed on probation (1992)
Illinois state representative Joe Kotlarz (D-IL) convicted and sentenced to jail for theft and conspiracy for pocketing in about $200,000 for a sale of state land to a company he once served as legal counsel (1997)
Illinois state senator Bruce A. Farley (D-IL) sentenced to 18 months in prison for mail fraud (1999)
Illinois state senator John A. D’Arco Jr. (D-IL) served about 3 years in prison for bribery and extortion (1995)
Illinois Chicago alderman Lawrence S. Bloom (D) sentenced to 6 months in 1999 for filing a false tax return.
Illinois Chicago alderman Jesse J. Evans (D) sentenced to 41 months in prison in 1997 for racketeering, extortion, conspiracy, attempted extortion, mail fraud, influence peddling, filing false tax returns, and obstruction of justice.
Illinois Chicago alderman Virgil E. Jones Jr. (D) in 1999 was sentenced to 2 and a half years in prison for extortion.
Illinois Chicago alderman Joseph A. Martínez (D) in 1998 pleaded guilty to ghost payrolling and was sentenced to 5 months in prison.
Illinois Chicago alderman Ambrosio Medrano (D) pleaded guilty to extortion in 1996 and was sentenced to 30 months in prison.
Illinois Chicago alderman Allan J. Streeter (D) pleaded guilty to extortion and filing false income tax returns and was sentenced to prison in 1998.
Illinois Chicago alderman Fred B. Roti (D) was sentenced to 48 months in 1993 for racketeering, conspiracy, bribery, among other things.
Illinois Chicago judge Thomas J. Maloney Jr. (D) sentenced to almost 16 years in prison for taking bribes, extortion and obstruction of justice in 1994.
Illinois Chicago treasurer Edward Rosewell (D) pleaded guilty to mail fraud but was not sentenced due to an illness that he died from soon after. His conviction was vacated in 1999.
Illinois State Treasurer Jerry Cosentino (D-IL) was convicted on federal check kiting charges (1992).
Illinois Chicago alderman Percy Giles (D) sentenced to 3 years in prison for racketeering, extortion, among other things in 2000.
Illinois Chicago alderman Arenda Troutman (D-IL) was arrested and charged with bribery in 2007.
Illinois Chicago City clerk Jim Laski (D) pleaded guilty to pocketing bribes for steering city business to trucking companies (2006).
Illinois Chicago Hired Truck Program
Illinois Governor George H. Ryan (R-IL) involved in sale of government licenses and contracts while he was Secretary of State
Illinois Governor Lennington Small (R-IL), associate of Al Capone, embezzled, sold pardons, etc., but was never convicted
Image:CoughlinandKenna.jpg
Chicago alderman "Bathhouse John" CoughlinIllinois Chicago alderman "Bathhouse John" Coughlin graft operation with fellow alderman Michael "Hinky Dink" Kenna, the so-called "Lords of the Levee" extracting protection payments from gambling and prostitution.
Illinois Chicago Mayor William Hale Thompson (R), years of ongoing corruption
Illinois Chicago city clerk Walter S. Kozubowski (D) was sentenced to 5 years in prison for mail fraud.

Gus Savage (D-IL) accused of trying to force himself on a female Peace Corps worker in Zaire (1989)
Henry Hyde (R-IL) - "youthful indiscretion" (1998)


5.  5 Republicans out of that whole list.  The rest?  All democrats.  Stop dreaming.  Wake up.  Illinois politics is dirty, dirty, dirty and at the heart of it all, with just a few exceptions, is the democrat party.  Why make up fiction when truth is so much more interesting?
Of course, I'm not implying that all democrats are dirty, but in illinois history, they sure have been.
Yes, George Ryan was convicted.  But he was only the most publicized, not an example of the norm.  And wouldn't you know it, Blagojevich is under federal investigation.  Let me check to see what his party affiliation is....
Democrat.



Since you missed it again my post was sarcasm.  I was practicing on being an apologist for war crimes similar to you.  I unfortunately don't have the stomach for it.  Abu Ghraib was only put out of operation when the media found out about it.  It had been brought to the administrations attention before that.  How many palaces did Saddam have?  Can you prove he knew about the rape rooms?   This isn't about his son, it is about him.  It is an absolutely ridiculous point, kind of like saying "Uhm Bush knew nothing about the sodomy and rape at Abu Ghraib because he didn't read the reports he was given until the media told him."


Illinois Secretary of State Paul Powell (D-IL) was found with $800,000 in cash in a shoebox in his hotel room. He died in 1970 and was never convicted (1970) What are your charges of corruption here?  Having money?  Good call lets get rid of all currency.

Illinois state representative James DeLeo (D-IL) caught in the "Operation Greylord" investigation of corruption in Cook County. He was indicted by a federal grand jury for taking bribes and negotiated guilty plea on a misdemeanor tax offense, and was placed on probation (1992)  I readily admit to Chicago )and by extension clearly) Cook County being hotbeds of democratic corruption.  I think that pares your list down nicely.  We are talking Springfield here.

Illinois state representative Joe Kotlarz (D-IL) convicted and sentenced to jail for theft and conspiracy for pocketing in about $200,000 for a sale of state land to a company he once served as legal counsel (1997) Absolutely valid criticism, lets string up anyone who uses political office to benefit a company they once worked for (Haliburton)

Gus Savage (D-IL) accused of trying to force himself on a female Peace Corps worker in Zaire (1989)  How is this corruption?  Sleazy and wrong absolutely, an offense requiring jail time... corruption?  like selling license plates to pay for re election campaign?  I dont think so. 

You forgot William Stratton.  Is it because he is a republican?  Is it because your cite is biased? How many others did you choose to leave out? 

I hope Blago goes up the river.  There is a difference between me and you, see I am not a blind party cheerleader.


Remedialone

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Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2008, 05:41:45 PM »
Quote
Saddam's torture chambers and gassing of the Kurds was a result of the civil war in Iraq, he shouldn't be held accountable for crimes committed during a war and we have no way of knowing whether or not he specified to torture the Iraqis or gas the kurds.

By your rationale most independent observers have said that the rape rooms were operated by Uday and not Saddam.  So it is ok then right?  Saddam shouldn't be held accountable for something we cannot connect him to.  In terms of being certain I am certain enough in my claims to say that the US government turned a blind eye to the atrocities and in some cases encouraged them.

Ok, you are confusing the difference between the head of state having knowledge about something and the government orchestrating it. If a General in Iraq set up rape rooms and purposefully hid it from the President, then I would still consider it the government's doing (albeit unknowingly). If A colonel rapes an Iraqi woman, that is a crime attributed to that individual.

Claiming that the US government turned a blind eye and encouraged some of these cases is unverifiable and inconsistant with the evidence that is available. It is simply your opinion and nothing else.

Tim according to Paul Bremer he informed Bush on January 16, 2004.  Bush acted on Abu Ghraib after 60 minutes aired in April

TimMitchell

Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2008, 06:03:41 PM »
Quote
Tim according to Paul Bremer he informed Bush on January 16, 2004.  Bush acted on Abu Ghraib after 60 minutes aired in April

"Sources have revealed new details from the Army's criminal investigation into reports of abuse of Iraqi detainees, including the location of the suspected crimes and evidence that is being sought. U.S. soldiers reportedly posed for photographs with partially unclothed Iraqi prisoners, a Pentagon official told CNN on Tuesday."—Barbara Starr, CNN, Jan. 21, 2004

"Seventeen U.S. soldiers have been suspended of duties pending the outcome of the investigation into alleged allegations of abuse of Iraqi prisoners, a U.S. officer said Monday."—Associated Press, Feb. 23, 2004

So, Bush informed Jan 16th, investigation started before Jan 21st, suspects suspended a month later...

BTW, this is from the source you posted earlier http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/students/index.php?action=post;topic=4010892.130;num_replies=133

Remedialone

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Re: What political party do most law students belong to?
« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2008, 06:10:57 PM »
Quote
Tim according to Paul Bremer he informed Bush on January 16, 2004.  Bush acted on Abu Ghraib after 60 minutes aired in April

"Sources have revealed new details from the Army's criminal investigation into reports of abuse of Iraqi detainees, including the location of the suspected crimes and evidence that is being sought. U.S. soldiers reportedly posed for photographs with partially unclothed Iraqi prisoners, a Pentagon official told CNN on Tuesday."—Barbara Starr, CNN, Jan. 21, 2004

"Seventeen U.S. soldiers have been suspended of duties pending the outcome of the investigation into alleged allegations of abuse of Iraqi prisoners, a U.S. officer said Monday."—Associated Press, Feb. 23, 2004

So, Bush informed Jan 16th, investigation started before Jan 21st, suspects suspended a month later...

BTW, this is from the source you posted earlier http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/students/index.php?action=post;topic=4010892.130;num_replies=133

I stand corrected... now since we are such a humanitarian nation why do we allow prisoners to be shipped overseas for torture?  Why do we bomb media outlets?  Are these just actions?