Law School Discussion

God doesn't like Lawyers

Steve Jones

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Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 09:38:04 PM »
You two lesbos need to get a room

Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 07:59:59 AM »
You two lesbos need to get a room

Steve, I'm not sure it's proper for someone in your position to use that kind of language.

I did laugh though.

Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2008, 12:38:17 PM »
Ok, I'll bite.
Describing people who are religious as being devoid of logic isn't a bigoted statement.  I'm sure it's well thought out and based on personal interaction, not bullcrap and nonsense...

"Define "liberalism" for me. I suppose I would fall a little left of center when it comes to my politics, but this has nothing to do with my education, just the way I was raised, so I really don't get your typical right-wing argument of "intellectual corruption," or any other way you try and disguise your anti-intellectual biases."

My 'typical right-wing argument' isn't based on nonsensical ravings or bigotry, and I do not have an 'anti-intellectual' bias.  Quite the contrary.  I believe one can be both intellectual and religious.
Unlike you, apparently, I know quite a few devout catholics, jews, and muslims that hold advanced degrees and have proven themselves to me to be unimpeachably smart.  Why do you automatically assume that religious people are anti-intellectual?
Bigotry.  If that's how you have been raised, I wouldn't brag too much.  Your parents would likely be at least a little dissapointed in your statement, even though it was, as you say, made in jest. 

"With regards to religious bigotry, that's just laughable. I have no problem with religious people, but I also have no problem with proclaiming those of a more "hardcore" (read: fundamentalist) religious bent as being unreasonable. By the very definition of the word they are not utilizing a whole bunch of reason. Religious bigotry has come overwhelmingly from the other side - I don't think poking a little fun at some St. Thomas kids on an internet message board is gonna rifle too many feathers. "

Interesting that you assert that people who are religious have displyed overwhelming religious bigotry.  Who?  When?  Examples please?

See, here's some examples of academic anti-religious sentiment:
We allow muslims special concessions in public schools all over this country so they can pray and observe their religious beliefs.  I have no issue with this.  However, if a Christian kid wants to pray in school, it's against the law.  Liberals push for religious freedoms for followers of islam while pushing to have the word 'god' removed from money and the pledge of allegiance.
Religious students in colleges across the nation are routinely advised to take their teachers often anti-god message and insert it into their own work to acheive decent grades.  My brother was one such person.  Several of his teachers showed animosity towards him because he wears a kippa.  They picked on him in class, asking him questions to bait him into saying something the teacher could ridicule.  My brother is smart, so this only happened once.
Everytime someone leaks that they are baptist, Catholic, Jewish, or born again in my law school, people get to talking in their little circles.  One such student, a friend of mine who has never tried to convert me or tell me that I was evil or wrong, has been talked about as a 'jesus freak', and somewhat ostracized by the yahoos at my school. 
The general attitude towards religion in this country has turned, in the last decade or so, decidedly anti-religious.  We went from a nation that believed in god to a nation that believes in nothing.  This is perfectly reflected in your original statement.  Fundamentalist christians aren't hurting anyone by praying and practicing as they wish.  I am still waiting for any hard evidence that shows them to be incapable of reason or logic OR that they have a higher fail out rate at law school than non-religious individuals.

Furthermore, I resent you lumping me in as a right-winger simply because I have observed religious persecution and derrogatory statements made about people who believe in god.  You know, statements like: "One could say that overly religious people are in turn not the most "rational" people, therefor will do more poorly in law school, where logic/reason matters. "

Please define 'overly religious'.  Then make the case that they aren't rational.
Belief in god is not a reflection of rationality.
Just for fun, here's a definition of rational:
Arrived at by the use of the peculiarly human mental processes by which man strives to connect his ideas as consciously, coherently and purposively as possible in order to plan the attainment of ends sought. In view of the human fallibility in selecting the best possible reasoning for attaining the ends sought, there is no implication as to the correctness or incorrectness of the reasoning. Consequently, all conscious human actions, whether or not appropriate for the ends sought, are rational.

I don't see the term 'god' or 'religious' anywhere in there.
And before you start believing that god has no place in law, you should know that most, that's right MOST, law is based on concepts and laws as written in the ancient hebrew scriptures, the talmud.
While I am not as well versed in the talmud as I would like, I did spend a summer in Israel studying it and my brother does a weekly class at his law firm.  It is interesting that when studying the talmud, lawyers are somewhat surprised to find similarities between the ancient texts and the modern rule of law.

Rather than make this a 'left wing/right wing' fight, which debases the entire argument anyway, let's try to look at things with an open, unbiased mind.

My issue is with those art teachers who spend class time lecturing about how Bush is evil.  It is with the scores of public school teachers that teach that god is fiction and science is truth.
The question remains, and has yet to be answered by science:  If we evolved, what created what we evolved from?  No answer is given.
Personally, I believe in evolution.  The science is relatively clear on that.  But I don't think for a second that believing that requires abandoning god.  Those that do are over-simplifying to hide ignorance.  There is plenty of evidence of god in this world if you choose to keep an alert eye out.
Believing in god does not make you a bad person.  It does not make you illogical.  It does not make you inferior at reason.
This is a lie being perpetrated by people who simply don't believe.
And my point doesn't make me a right wing nut, either.  It makes me tolerant.
Remember tolerance?  As a left of center individual, surely you've heard that phrase from the left in this country?
Why is it okay to be tolerant of homosexuality but not okay to be tolerant of religious people?
Let me put it in another way for you to consider.
Replace the term "overly religious" in your statement with 'homosexual' or 'black' or 'chinese'.  Would that be okay for you to say?
Of course not.  I would wager that if you asserted the same sentiment with any other group or class, you would have found far more objection to your statement.  But because you put that on religious people, no one bothers to call it what it is - innapropriate.
Now, you'll either come back with another smart alec answer, flame me, or make more excuses for why your statement is okay.  That's fine.  I've said my peace and am good with it.  Not everyone cares about being civil, being kind, or just not being rude.  OR, you'll just take a second and try replacing the words as I've asked and realize that your statement may have been an attempt at light joking around, but was somewhat unreasonable and offensive.
Either way, I'm good.
Best of luck!
:-)


Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2008, 01:43:34 PM »
I could've saw this coming. One could say that overly religious people are in turn not the most "rational" people, therefor will do more poorly in law school, where logic/reason matters.

Although I guess they might have just spent all their time praying for a good grade rather than studying for it.


Ironic poor logic FTW!


LLAWL IMO.

Alecto

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Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 10:07:32 PM »
Ok, I'll bite.
Describing people who are religious as being devoid of logic isn't a bigoted statement.  I'm sure it's well thought out and based on personal interaction, not bullcrap and nonsense...

My 'typical right-wing argument' isn't based on nonsensical ravings or bigotry, and I do not have an 'anti-intellectual' bias.  Quite the contrary.  I believe one can be both intellectual and religious.
Unlike you, apparently, I know quite a few devout catholics, jews, and muslims that hold advanced degrees and have proven themselves to me to be unimpeachably smart.  Why do you automatically assume that religious people are anti-intellectual?
Bigotry.  If that's how you have been raised, I wouldn't brag too much.  Your parents would likely be at least a little dissapointed in your statement, even though it was, as you say, made in jest. 
. . . .
Now, you'll either come back with another smart alec answer, flame me, or make more excuses for why your statement is okay.  That's fine.  I've said my peace and am good with it.  Not everyone cares about being civil, being kind, or just not being rude.  OR, you'll just take a second and try replacing the words as I've asked and realize that your statement may have been an attempt at light joking around, but was somewhat unreasonable and offensive.
Either way, I'm good.
Best of luck!
:-)


Get off your soap-box!  If you are both intellectual and religious, then this discussion probably doesn't apply to you.    The problem is that I think most of us have experienced people who use adherence to certain religious views as an excuse to not form their own opinions on a variety of topics.  Also, there has been a resurgence in very public displays of blind fundamentalism recently, and I think this lends a bad reputation to many genuinely devout individuals. 

Your assertions about art teachers lecturing on Bush and public school teachers denouncing god are disturbing, to say the least.  That sounds like a case of you drawing sweeping generalizations from one or two isolated incidents.  Any good teacher will differentiate between the science and religion, without trying to indoctrinate students. 

As for you railing against all of the accommodations made for Muslims, think that they are trying to practice a religion individually (which this country supports) as opposed to foisting it on all citizens over the course of a day,  as happens when the word "god" is in the pledge (that many students still are required to recite on a daily basis in school) and on our nation's currency (which most of us handle each day).

The reality is that religion is based on faith, which is belief in something without proof.  That is sort of the antithesis of law (and science, for that matter).  This doesn't mean that a very religious person cannot be successful in science or law, but rather that the person needs to be very aware to adjust his/her paradigm depending on whether he/she is in a private or professional sphere.  Darwin and E.O. Wilson were both very religious individuals in addition to being renowned scientists, but they were able to realize that science addresses some issues, and religion addresses others.  It's not an either/or situation.

Every group is going to have its extremists. You holding up some inflammatory examples of perceived religious persecution doesn't make you any more in the right (although they could be very valid examples).  Have you stopped to consider that these examples hail from a few instances at a few schools, and probably do not reflect higher education at large?  You're no better than the people on this thread you're trying to discredit.

Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2008, 10:59:21 PM »
I suppose thus far I've been playing too loose and fast with my words in an attempt to keep the mood light-hearted, as I'm not a fan of "serious" philosophical discussions on message boards. Let me make just a few things clear:

-When I rail against people who I describe as "overly religious," I generally mean "fundamentalists," whether they be fundamentalist Christians, Jews or Muslims. People that believe in their scriptures as literal truth seem to be the most outlandish in their beliefs when it comes religion in the public sphere.
-I most certainly do not hate people who are religious. I've grown up Catholic and have been a practicing Roman Catholic most of my life. I can't have lived in the South all of my life without having the majority of my friends and family be religious in varying degrees. Most of these people are intelligent, rational people. I'm sure quite a few of them will go on to be very successful, in the legal field as well as others.
-Neither I nor Darwin believe(d) that God and evolution are mutually exclusive. The argument of the "infinite regress" (aka, "who created that very beginning") was admittedly beyond Darwin. He, as I, claim that evolution isn't built to solve that problem. It doesn't have to. However, the burden of proof lies with religion, as their claims are much more difficult to conceptualize/prove.
-The country has not been getting harsher on religion in schools and the public. If anything, the religious right movement has made religion even more of an issue than it has been in a long time. You and people of a similar persuasion as yours love to point out one or two instances of discrimination and then claim a vast godless plot to rid America of religion. Just the opposite - it's harder to be an atheist than ever before, as there's much more of a black mark on those professing no religion at all than there is on those professing a deep religious conviction. This is especially pronounced in politics. Have you ever heard of an openly-atheistic politician?
-Bringing up "special considerations" for Muslims in schools doesn't prove anything. Not allowing them to pray in schools would be violating their right to practice, as they are required to pray five times a day. The school does not "endorse" this religion, it merely permits it. If a Christian child wants to pray in school, he or she is more than welcome to. Of course, it isn't acceptable for a teacher to openly advocate group prayer, as that would be showing an endorsement by an authority figure. It would be the same if a Muslim teacher advocated that every few hours his students turned to Mecca and prayed to Allah.
-Much of the principles of our laws of course have been founded on ancient religious principles. That's great. Our country undoubtedly was founded on many principles many religions would have found appropriate. They made sure, however, to assert that it was to be a secular state, favoring no one religion (and that includes no religion at all, if that be a person's preference).

I hope I didn't come off as hateful or bigoted in my previous posts - I've already said that most of it was only said half-serious. I love serious debates, and hate when they boil down to personal invective. I'd love to hear anyone who wants to weigh in on the topic, especially as it pertains to the law.

Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 05:33:02 AM »
Why are people writing so much? Seriously, I never read more than four or five sentences of a post. Get real dudes.

non parata est

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Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2008, 07:11:13 AM »
Jeez, I wake up for my light-hearted morning LSD read and I get this...

Alecto

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Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2008, 07:54:41 AM »
my dearest Alton, this thread was hijacked by some overly-serious champion of religions, and I think we are all feeling a little on the defensive as we try to right what was supposed to be a light-hearted discussion about an article.

also,

Why are people writing so much? Seriously, I never read more than four or five sentences of a post. Get real dudes.

hear hear!  keep it concise, dudes.

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Re: God doesn't like Lawyers
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2008, 08:03:14 AM »
my dearest Alton, this thread was hijacked by some overly-serious champion of religions, and I think we are all feeling a little on the defensive as we try to right what was supposed to be a light-hearted discussion about an article.

Hmm.  Yes, carry on, my allotted time for morning amusement is near its end!  Continue to post humorous indictments of Cooley, Steve Jones, and Kaplan!  I shall sit back, pour another cup of coffee, and read with pleasure!