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Author Topic: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?  (Read 4327 times)

jack24

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Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« on: May 23, 2008, 03:02:38 PM »
I don't know that much about Hockey, so I'm hoping someone out there can help me understand how good this kid is.

matta

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 03:18:38 PM »
Dude, google him and other stars of the past (i.e. Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Orr).  Check their stats up to this stage in their careers and compare.  Maybe watch a little youtube video of him.  I mean jesus, do you rely on LSD to research everything for you?  Damn.

Yak Herder

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 03:20:22 PM »
How good is Crosby?  Sooooo good  :D!
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jack24

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 03:24:35 PM »
Dude, google him and other stars of the past (i.e. Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Orr).  Check their stats up to this stage in their careers and compare.  Maybe watch a little youtube video of him.  I mean jesus, do you rely on LSD to research everything for you?  Damn.

Thanks.  I didn't realize there were other resources I could use..  Idiot.

I just read 4 articles about him and I checked the stats..  I watched highlights of him on sportscenter..
I don't watch hockey, so I don't understand hockey "greatness".  I'm hoping some real hockey fans can   "help me understand" how good he is.
I'm a huge tennis fan, and I can give people a good impression of how good Roger Federer is.
If you don't understand the difficulty and intensity of tennis then stats and video clips do very little.


matta

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 03:34:28 PM »
I don't see how stats and highlights aren't enough to get a feel.  I don't watch hockey either, but I can get a sense of how good someone is by goals, assists, etc.  It may be more difficult to establish which defensmen are great, based on stats, but for a player like Crosby, stats should make it apparent.  I don't get what you are after.  Do you want like an existential discussion of hockey???  The only way anyone can answer this question is through statistics or linking a youtube video, and these resources are readily available in a click.  It's not like tennis where you can say so and so has a great serve, average baseline game, good at the net, excellent topspin, etc.  All anyone can say is he scores alot and maybe that he reminds them of someone like Gretzky.

jack24

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 04:15:50 PM »
Well sports can be subjective.   I know you can talk about stats and you can see footage.  Maybe that's enough for you to understand how good someone is, but I'm more interested in your opinion. 
Knowing that Roger Federer hasn't lost a match at Wimbledon in 4 years doesn't really mean that much if you don't understand how competitive that is.  At least singles tennis is 1 on 1 so you can say he is doing it all by himself...  But Federer has been able to beat the worlds best tennis players on grass over and over and over.  No bad days allowed.  No best of 7 series.... just sudden death.  His domination on grass is basically equal to a team winning the super bowl 4 years in a row.  Once he gets to the "playoffs" on grass, he just doesn't lose.   (Granted he's been slumping lately and he loses on clay to Nadal)
A baseball player can go to the hall of fame by only getting on base 40% of the time.
A sub-.500 team can beat the best team in the eastern conference 3 out of 7 times.
Shaun Alexander can win the MVP and then get cut two years later.
For nearly 5 years, Federer hasn't had an off day at Wimbledon.   He's managed to beat 28 world class opponents without losing.

Sure I could just say,  "Look him up on youtube, or check the stats"

I guess I can give you more specific questions:

Is Crosby the best center in the league?
Is he the best 20 year old hockey player ever?
how much better is he than the 2nd best?
Is he the most consistant?
Is he the most clutch player in the league?
If he continues on his pace, will he be better than gretsky?
Is his domination Tiger Woods esque?




jammer

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 05:12:38 PM »
Well sports can be subjective.   I know you can talk about stats and you can see footage.  Maybe that's enough for you to understand how good someone is, but I'm more interested in your opinion. 
Knowing that Roger Federer hasn't lost a match at Wimbledon in 4 years doesn't really mean that much if you don't understand how competitive that is.  At least singles tennis is 1 on 1 so you can say he is doing it all by himself...  But Federer has been able to beat the worlds best tennis players on grass over and over and over.  No bad days allowed.  No best of 7 series.... just sudden death.  His domination on grass is basically equal to a team winning the super bowl 4 years in a row.  Once he gets to the "playoffs" on grass, he just doesn't lose.   (Granted he's been slumping lately and he loses on clay to Nadal)
A baseball player can go to the hall of fame by only getting on base 40% of the time.
A sub-.500 team can beat the best team in the eastern conference 3 out of 7 times.
Shaun Alexander can win the MVP and then get cut two years later.
For nearly 5 years, Federer hasn't had an off day at Wimbledon.   He's managed to beat 28 world class opponents without losing.

Sure I could just say,  "Look him up on youtube, or check the stats"

I guess I can give you more specific questions:

Is Crosby the best center in the league?
Is he the best 20 year old hockey player ever?
how much better is he than the 2nd best?
Is he the most consistant?
Is he the most clutch player in the league?
If he continues on his pace, will he be better than gretsky?
Is his domination Tiger Woods esque?

While his domination may not be Woods-esque, Sidney Crosby is freaking good. Is he the best twenty year old ever? It's close. Until an injury, his stats were comparable to Gretzky. Also keep in mind that Gretzky played in a time when the NHL was much more "high scoring" than it is today, so in that sense, I think he has THE POTENTIAL to be better than Gretzky. Gretzky played during a time when the goalies were the fat kid that couldn't skate...now the goalies are often the most athletic players on the team, so there's that going against Crosby, too. Crosby doesn't have the luxury of tearing up Tim Cheveldae every couple of weeks.

However, there are a lot of players in the league that give Crosby a run for his money when it comes to the title of "best player" "best young player" or "best center" in the league. His teammate, Evengi Malkin is up for the league MVP, and he really took control of the team when Crosby went down with an injury. Although he's not a center, Ovechkin is another player regarded as one of the best young players in the league.

In my opinion, Crosby has more all-around talent than Ovechkin or Malkin. Ovechkin scores a ridiculous amount of goals individually whereas Crosby makes all the players with him on the ice that much better. Malkin does this, but I'm not sure he's as dominant as Crosby.

I think Crosby's better than Gretzky, but I didn't see Gretzky in his prime...and when he played for the Blues, he sucked it up, "assisted" on Steve Yzerman's game winning goal to eliminate the Blues from the playoffs, and then made ludicrous contract demands afterwards. I think he sucks at life. So I'm bitter about the Great One.

jack24

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 05:21:19 PM »
Thanks Jammer, you are way more helpful than Matta.

Ender Wiggin

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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 05:23:42 PM »
He is definitely not Woods-esque.  He is probably not even the best player in the league (Ovechkin is pretty damn good), and he has a teammate that is pretty awesome too (Malkin). 

You could make an argument that Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg both could be better all-around players, since they are each far superior to Crosby defensively.  He could definitely improve that aspect of his game--Steve Yzerman did, and pretty late in his career--so I wouldn't rule it out that he could end up being the best overall, but I just don't see it now.  (Though he is damn good, so don't think I am being too critical.)

Either way, he is going to lose his first Stanley Cup finals pretty soon.


LSN


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Re: Hockey Fans: How good is Sidney Crosby?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 05:26:34 PM »
I'll help you out.


I guess I can give you more specific questions:

Is Crosby the best center in the league?


Funny enough, no.  He's getting there, but he's not there yet.  There are a number of players in the league who are probably just as effective or important as Sidney Crosby when it comes to center play, including his own team, Evgeni Malkin, who was probably the best center in the league this year, all-round. 

That said, Crosby is fixing the two problems he still has: consistently getting back and playing defense, and being physical around the net.  Once those two get sorted out, and he starts putting pucks in the net again instead of passing his open shots, he will easily be the best center in the league.  He has the most talent.

Is he the best 20 year old hockey player ever?


Ha!  No.  Look, Crosby is an amazing talent, and the NHL needs him, but there have been better 20 year olds.  First, even Alex Ovechkin is about as good as Crosby right now, and they're basically the same age.  Second, there were a number of players who may or may not have scored more points than Crosby at his age, but were probably his equal as players.  And there's one guy who was most certainly better at Crosby's age: a man named Wayne Gretzky.  His first NHL season (his second pro season) he tallied 137 points.  He was only 19, IIRC. 

Crosby does bring some intangibles, though.  For one thing, I actually think he's a better leader now than Gretzky was at his age.  Another factor to consider is the weight of expectation he bears, not just of his team and fans, but of the entire league.  He handles it impressively.

how much better is he than the 2nd best?


In terms of talent?  Just a tiny bit.  But that's because the NHL, I believe, is entering into another golden age.  There isn't much separating Malkin, Crosby and Ovechkin, and they will all be future hall of famers unless they get injured.  The "second tier" behind them is also filled with potential HoFers.  If the rules for goalie equipment get redrawn this summer as is expected, look for way more goals in the coming years.

Is he the most consistant?


To be honest, yes.  When he's not injured, he scores.  Since he started as an 18 year old rookie, he's only had, IIRC, 2 streaks of 3 or more games where he didn't score at least a point.  That is phenomenal for such a young player, and it's almost unmatched in the league.  If he's on the ice, he makes things happen.  That's why I say he's the most talented player in the league.  He sees the ice so well.  It's really fun to watch him play because he makes something happen out of nothing -- he creates space, or finds space where you didn't think there was any, and then puts passes on the tape of teammates who simply have to shoot to put the puck in the net.  He alters the flow of a game when he's on song.  That, at least, is very Gretzky-like.  But, just in case this wasn't clear, he's no Gretzky.

Is he the most clutch player in the league?


This is yet to be determined.  It's difficult to define "clutch" in hockey unless you're talking about goalies.  A few guys like Mark Messier and Steve Yzerman managed to transcend that through sheer will, determination, and backing their promises with results, but you can't really talk about non-goalies as "clutch" unless they continuously score game winners in tight games.  There are a few such guys.  I don't think Crosby is there yet, but he does have a habit of instigating momentum-changing shifts when his team needs them.  However, this is still one thing Crosby needs to prove in the post-season, particularly since he's trying to be a leader in the Messier mold.

If he continues on his pace, will he be better than gretsky?


No.  Look, nobody will ever be better than Gretzky.  The game has changed, and besides, I don't think anyone can have that pure talent again.  Lemieux was brilliant, and his career sadly shortened by injuries, but he never was Gretzky either.  And he was about as close as anyone was going to come.

I always say there are only two athletes that I can think of in world sport that were so ridiculously superior to everyone else who's ever played that they should have their own Hall of Fame (and, in the latter case, he does): Wayne Gretzky in hockey, and Donald Bradman in cricket.  There may be more, but I haven't thought it through completely.  I'd have to say that it's going to be hard to challenge those two, though.  You can't even say this of Pele, as great as he was.  Tiger might get there, although I doubt that he was THAT much better than Nicklaus.

Crosby will have his own legend, that's for sure.  His best years lie ahead.  I'm willing to bet that if he stays healthy, with this core around him, he'll be putting up 150+ point seasons for a few years.  And that is absolutely amazing.  But it's still not the 200+ points Gretzky could put up in his prime.

Is his domination Tiger Woods esque?


No.  *&^%, whose is?  Federer, maybe, but other than that...



I have to say that this upcoming Stanley Cup Finals is going to be fun to watch.  You should tune in.  Both teams employ the sort of run and gun styles of the high-scoring teams of the '70s and '80s, and both have spectacular on-ice talent.  At the same time, both teams are solid defensively, and have great goalies.  It will be a quick-flowing, fairly high-scoring series.  It's worth your time. 




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