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Author Topic: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings  (Read 1206 times)

WSUAlum1

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Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« on: May 08, 2008, 11:34:07 PM »
I know this info is available elsewhere on this board for those who want to search, but as folks are finishing their UG final exams and turning their thoughts toward picking a school, I thought it might be useful to collect the rankings here.

Also: I'd like to make a plea to people who might have similar rankings for prior years.  Almost every school in tier N will tell you that it has some new program that will move it up to tier N-1 by the time you graduate.  Knowing where schools have been for the last few years would give us all some idea about whether these promises are at all credible.

(To give the one eg I know: Michigan State was T4 two years ago.  Last year it went T3.  It is now ranked 108--near the top of T3 (since T2 extends to 104 b/c of ties).  It will likely be T2 b4 long.  Cross-state rival Wayne State was at the top of T3 a few years ago, but has now fallen into a tie for 125--well behind.  Two years ago, Wayne State was telling incoming students that it was about to crack T2.  Not even close)

Please feel free to follow up w/ other similar stories.

Here are the #s:

Third Tier

105. (Tie) Creighton, U. Arkansas (Fayetteville), U. Maine
108. (Tie) Michigan State University, Quinnipiac U., U. Mississippi, U. Toledo
112. (Tie) Albany, U. Akron, U.  Montana, U. San Francisco, U. St. Thomas (MN), Vermont
118. (Tie) Drake, Gonzaga, Howard, New York Law School, U. Idaho, U. Missouri-Kansas City, W. Virginia
125. (Tie) Cleveland State, Loyola - New Orleans, Texas Tech., U. Baltimore, U. Wyoming, Wayne State U. 
131. (Tie) Chapman, Franklin Pierce, Hamline, Pace, U. Arkansas-Little Rock, Washburn
137.  (Tie) Ohio Northern, Samford (Cumberland), Suffolk, U. South Dakota, Willamette

Fourth Tier

142. U. North Dakota
143. (Tie) Campbell, So. Illinois, Southwestern, U. Memphis, U. Tulsa, Valparaiso
149. Northern Illinois
150. (Tie) CUNY,  William Mitchell
152. U. Dayton
153. (Tie) Duquesne, Florida International, John Marshall
156. (Tie) California Western, Northern Kentucky
158. (Tie) Nova Southeastern University, Roger Williams U., Widener 
161. (Tie) Capital, Whittier
163. (Tie) Mississippi College, South Texas, St. Mary's, Texas Wesleyan, U. Detroit
168. (Tie) N.C. Central, Oklahoma City U., Texas Southern
171. (Tie) Florida Coastal, Regent, Western New England
174. (Tie) Golden Gate, New England, Southern, St. Thomas (FL), Thomas Jefferson
179. (Tie) Ave Maria, Touro
181. (Tie) Barry, Thomas Cooley, U. District of Columbia
184. Appalachian

Source: http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/03/us-news-hacked.html

Harsh Reality

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Re: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 11:53:30 PM »
T3 and T4 rankings are irrelevant.  It's like ranking the best community colleges in America.

Multiple LSAT Taker

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Re: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2008, 12:27:37 AM »
I would like to know why "WSUAlum1" tries this much hard to degrade Wayne State Law. It seems that WSUAlum1 is trying to persuade people not to go to Wayne State Law because he believes that this school is inferior to Michgan State Law. As "Harsh Reality" posted, the difference between 108 v. 125 is not meaningful;  The job prospects for JDs from Michgan State and Wayne State must be very similar and it is not likely that MEANINGFUL numbers of these JDs would be able to make big law firms (such as vault 100 and NJL 250).  If I were a real Wayne State Alumn, I would have tried to highlight the positive aspect of Wayne State...     

WSUAlum1

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Re: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2008, 07:29:52 AM »
good Q, Multiple LSAT Taker (& I wish you luck on your LSATs)

Lots of people in exactly your position 3 and 4 years ago were sold a bill of goods about WSU.  They were told: Wayne was v. inexpensive, it was the best school in Mich after U of M, it was about to break into T2, etc.  Then the school significantly increased tuition (to hire more profs to improve fac/stud ratios to get into T2).  It created a scholarship program to raise GPA/LSAT, also to get into T2. (Students in this program not only get reduced tuition, but also get other privileges denied even to students who work hard and get good grades.  A caste system).  The result is that the average Wayne State student today pays a lot more in tuition, so that a few high LSAT/GPA students can go to cocktail receptions with big firm lawyers and leave the school debt free.  Nice.

As I've said in other posts, there used to be something idealistic about the school.  Students could leave w/ low debt and do the things they came to law school to do.  That is all becoming harder.

The school has sold its soul to US News, and lost.  It is now deep in T3, way behind where it was when this whole adventure started.  I hope it returns to where it started, but 17 places in US News is a lot of ground to make up.  The only way to make up that many places is an infusion of new $.  Will it come from students? (more tuition hikes)  Alums? (they are still being dunned for the new building that isn't close to being financed)  The university? (not likely--w/ declining enrollments)

I could go on, but I'd just be repeating other posts.  Best of luck making a hard decision.  Assemble all of the information you can--from school visits, admissions people, lawyers in the community, newspaper stories about the schools, etc.  My posts are just a few 'data points' among many.  You get to decide how much credence they deserve.

Wherever you go--if you work hard, you will develop skills that will help you for a lifetime.  Good luck on your career.

john jacob

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Re: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2008, 03:40:30 PM »
good Q, Multiple LSAT Taker (& I wish you luck on your LSATs)

Lots of people in exactly your position 3 and 4 years ago were sold a bill of goods about WSU.  They were told: Wayne was v. inexpensive, it was the best school in Mich after U of M, it was about to break into T2, etc.  Then the school significantly increased tuition (to hire more profs to improve fac/stud ratios to get into T2).  It created a scholarship program to raise GPA/LSAT, also to get into T2. (Students in this program not only get reduced tuition, but also get other privileges denied even to students who work hard and get good grades.  A caste system).  The result is that the average Wayne State student today pays a lot more in tuition, so that a few high LSAT/GPA students can go to cocktail receptions with big firm lawyers and leave the school debt free.  Nice.

As I've said in other posts, there used to be something idealistic about the school.  Students could leave w/ low debt and do the things they came to law school to do.  That is all becoming harder.

The school has sold its soul to US News, and lost.  It is now deep in T3, way behind where it was when this whole adventure started.  I hope it returns to where it started, but 17 places in US News is a lot of ground to make up.  The only way to make up that many places is an infusion of new $.  Will it come from students? (more tuition hikes)  Alums? (they are still being dunned for the new building that isn't close to being financed)  The university? (not likely--w/ declining enrollments)

I could go on, but I'd just be repeating other posts.  Best of luck making a hard decision.  Assemble all of the information you can--from school visits, admissions people, lawyers in the community, newspaper stories about the schools, etc.  My posts are just a few 'data points' among many.  You get to decide how much credence they deserve.

Wherever you go--if you work hard, you will develop skills that will help you for a lifetime.  Good luck on your career.

This is a fascinating perspective.

Do you have numbers to show us? How were these other students treated differently?

RockinJay

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Re: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2008, 05:28:19 PM »
What is the real difference between U. Arkansas (Fayetteville) and U. Arkansas (Little Rock)?

tcwhat

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Re: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2008, 06:27:23 PM »
What is the real difference between U. Arkansas (Fayetteville) and U. Arkansas (Little Rock)?

One is Northwest Arkansas and one is in god forsaken Southern Arkansas, known to the locals as LA(Lower Arkansas).

Other than that, not much.