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Author Topic: Is Georgetown overrated?  (Read 8877 times)

AmyWaxFanClubPresident

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2008, 01:48:23 PM »
I'm not arguing that Georgetown is not a good choice if you want to get BigLaw.  All I originally said is that people have a rosier view of prospects at T14 schools than what the prospects actually are.  As you stated, that 79% are not all going to Biglaw and we all know the creative accounting that even T14 schools participate in.  Plenty of firms have more than a 100 people and do not pay market, especially because having a 100 person firm is different than a 100 person office (i.e. Gibbons PC who has 180 attorneys firm wide, and just recently raised to 125k in NY).

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So we should tell all 0Ls that T14=Biglaw, when you just admitted that some of the lower T14's place around 50% of their class in Biglaw? 

Depends on how you define biglaw. 79% of GULC (Which I will admit has the worst placement in the T14) 2Ls get summer associate positions at firms of 100 lawyers or more. About 2/3 went to firms of 100 or more after graduation (The difference is largely people who chose to do clerkships/government/public interest). Hardly "around 50%" Granted, not all of those firms payed at the market rate or are listed in the firm rankings biglaw bound people seem to love so much, but all were solid jobs that won't leave the people who took them struggling to pay off student loans. Frankly, I don't think its too terribly difficult to stay out of the bottom 1/4 as long as you work reasonably hard.

While T14 might not = Biglaw, going to any T14 does afford a very strong potential option to go that route if you so desire. We shouldn't tell 0L's to go any one route as a blanket statement. People have vastly different reasons and goals in going to law school. What we can tell those who have a desire to go biglaw and/or will be taking on very large amounts of debt, is that it would be wise to try to attend T14 schools if doing so is an option (not just academically but also personally).
"This semester I will plunge you into the slough of despair, and when you are at your most desolate and are ready to give up, I will give you some light" - Professor Amy Wax

nealric

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2008, 01:56:00 PM »
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Plenty of firms have more than a 100 people and do not pay, especially because having a 100 person firm is different than a 100 person office.

I challenge you to find a firm of 100 lawyers or more that does not pay reasonably well. There are a slect few that only pay around 80k, but almost all are in secondary markets with very low cost of living (i.e. Nebraska, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc.)

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(i.e. Gibbons PC who has 180 attorneys firm wide, and just recently raised to 125k in NY).

Again, its how expansively you define biglaw. Nobody is defaulting on their student loans because they are 'only' making 125k. It wasn't too long ago that Cravath paid at that level.
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AmyWaxFanClubPresident

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 01:57:25 PM »
I put one is my previous post.  125k with no bonus in NY is not much if you have a 150k in loans.  I'll go ahead and find more firms, and put them in this post.  Edit: And this will not even include the insurance shops who have more than 100 lawyers and pay well below market.

Garvey Schubert Barer - 110k (DC)
Porter Wright - 125k (DC)
Stinson - 115k (DC)
Thompson Coburn - 125k (DC)
Vorys - 125k (DC)
Wiggin & Dana - 105k (Philly, NY, CT)
Fox Roth - 125k (NY, Philly, and 8000 other cities)

Edit:  These are ones I found quickly on NALP.  There are plenty more, and a ton not listed on NALP.

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Plenty of firms have more than a 100 people and do not pay, especially because having a 100 person firm is different than a 100 person office.

I challenge you to find a firm of 100 lawyers or more that does not pay reasonably well. There are a slect few that only pay around 80k, but almost all are in secondary markets with very low cost of living (i.e. Nebraska, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc.)


"This semester I will plunge you into the slough of despair, and when you are at your most desolate and are ready to give up, I will give you some light" - Professor Amy Wax

nealric

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2008, 02:00:42 PM »
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I put one is my previous post.  125k with no bonus in NY is not much if you have a 150k in loans. 

Compare that to the insurance defense jobs at 50k in NYC that many are forced to fight over.
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AmyWaxFanClubPresident

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2008, 02:01:18 PM »
And it was recent that law school tuition was lower, COL was lower, we pretended inflation didn't exist etc.  Gibbons was the first one I thought of, but I'll find more that pay less.

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Plenty of firms have more than a 100 people and do not pay, especially because having a 100 person firm is different than a 100 person office.

I challenge you to find a firm of 100 lawyers or more that does not pay reasonably well. There are a slect few that only pay around 80k, but almost all are in secondary markets with very low cost of living (i.e. Nebraska, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc.)

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(i.e. Gibbons PC who has 180 attorneys firm wide, and just recently raised to 125k in NY).

Again, its how expansively you define biglaw. Nobody is defaulting on their student loans because they are 'only' making 125k. It wasn't too long ago that Cravath paid at that level.

"This semester I will plunge you into the slough of despair, and when you are at your most desolate and are ready to give up, I will give you some light" - Professor Amy Wax

AmyWaxFanClubPresident

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2008, 02:02:44 PM »
Right, but my point is your 79% INCLUDES these firms (low paying 100+ lawyer firms including ID), and more importantly the 79% INCLUDES staff attorneys.

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I put one is my previous post.  125k with no bonus in NY is not much if you have a 150k in loans. 

Compare that to the insurance defense jobs at 50k in NYC that many are forced to fight over.
"This semester I will plunge you into the slough of despair, and when you are at your most desolate and are ready to give up, I will give you some light" - Professor Amy Wax

nealric

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2008, 02:14:43 PM »
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and more importantly the 79% INCLUDES staff attorneys.


No it does not. 79% are summer associates after their 2L year. Staff attorneys are never summer associates.

I have never heard of someone contemplating a staff attorney job here.

The 79% number I am quoting is not from any materials intended for prospective students, but from the numbers they give us for setting OCI expectations. There is little incentive for inflating the numbers.

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low paying 100+ lawyer firms including ID

As I said before, its about how you define "low paying". In my mind, nobody getting paid six figures is low paid. There arent any ID firms that come to GULC OCI and I have never heard of someone having to take an ID job from GULC. Futhermore, 100+ attorney ID firms are far and few between.
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AmyWaxFanClubPresident

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2008, 02:17:46 PM »
Depends on the firm.  Not every firm where someone is a SA is going to pay them as a full associate and give them a full time offer.  You never said 79% got their SA THROUGH OCI, and it'd be silly to think every single person got their job through OCI.  I know of two people who graduated from Georgetown who are staff attorneys, and you know more people than me.  I'm sure people are taking staff attorney/ID jobs, but they probably don't run around publicizing this.

In your mind, no one who makes 110k is low paid.  But what do you think about people who make 110k from Gtown or any other school and have a 180k in loans to pay off?  The difference between Biglaw firms and these other firms is 110k in first year comp, plus less salary compression and better exit options.

Edit:  I know your trying to defend Gtown, but I'm not trying to attack it.  I fully admit that not even 80% of Penn gets Biglaw.

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and more importantly the 79% INCLUDES staff attorneys.


No it does not. 79% are summer associates after their 2L year. Staff attorneys are never summer associates.

I have never heard of someone contemplating a staff attourney job here.

low paying 100+ lawyer firms including ID [/quote]

As I said before, its about how you define "low paying". In my mind, nobody getting paid six figures is low paid. There arent any ID firms that come to GULC OCI and I have never heard of someone having to take an ID job from GULC. Futhermore, 100+ attorney ID firms are far and few between.
[/quote]
"This semester I will plunge you into the slough of despair, and when you are at your most desolate and are ready to give up, I will give you some light" - Professor Amy Wax

nealric

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2008, 07:09:39 PM »
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Not every firm where someone is a SA is going to pay them as a full associate and give them a full time offer.

If you are not in consideration for a full time offer, then you are not a SA- you are an intern.

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In your mind, no one who makes 110k is low paid.  But what do you think about people who make 110k from Gtown or any other school and have a 180k in loans to pay off? 

They take a few more years to pay off their loans, but they will by no means starve or be looking at defaulting. The difference between making 110k and market rate biglaw is far less than the difference between making 50k and 110k in terms of the quality of life it affords (in my humble opinion).

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   You never said 79% got their SA THROUGH OCI, and it'd be silly to think every single person got their job through OCI. 

True, but the vast, vast majority of people going to large firms get their jobs from OCI.

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I fully admit that not even 80% of Penn gets Biglaw.

I think we are just arguing over semantics here. 80% of Penn gets biglaw under some defenitions (mine) but not yours. Thats fine, we can agree to disagree on the matter. It's a rather silly term anyways.
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ricefigaro

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Re: Is Georgetown overrated?
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2008, 01:39:06 AM »
This thread made me wonder how many summer positions there were at the most well regarded firms. I looked at NALP and complied a list:

Total number of 2008 Summers according to NALP
Wachtell 30
Cravath 165
Sullivan 148
Skadden 272
Davis 134      Total V5: 749
Simpson 145
Latham 261
Clearly 108
Weil 194
Covington 72      V 6-10: 780      V 1-10: 1,529
Kirkland 197
Shearman 153
Debevoise 75
Wilmer 115
Sidley 197      V 11-15: 737      V 1-15: 2,266
Williams Connely 32
Paul Weiss 107
Gibson 160
Arnold 91
OMM 134               V 16-20: 524      V 1-20:2,790
Jones 230
White and Case 190
Morrison F 151
Ropes and Gray 170
Milbank 98      V 21-25: 839      V 1-25: 3,629

And according graduation data taken from ABA, there were about 4,500 graduates from the T18 or so. Comparing this graduation figure of 4,500 with the number of V25 summer gigs 3,629. It seems safe to say that those who go to a T14 are practically guaranteed a V100 job if they want one.