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Poll

Who is the greatest basketball player of all time??

Michael Jordan
 35 (72.9%)
Kobe Bryant
 5 (10.4%)
Bill Russell
 2 (4.2%)
Magic Johnson
 5 (10.4%)
Larry Bird
 1 (2.1%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Author Topic: MJ OR KOBE?  (Read 6804 times)

UnbiasedObserver

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Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2008, 04:25:11 PM »
I agreed that most championships came with dominant big men.....The only team that I can remember was the pistons. Unless you can ben wallace dominant....

The Pistons had Rasheed Wallace.  He's essentially a center, but they put Ben Wallace at center because he's a defensive beast.

Again, MJ could win without a dominating big men.  He might be the only great player to have done so.  That makes him the best player of his era.  While Kobe is the best in the NBA now,
he's not the same caliber. I'm sorry. 

I guess our word of big man is much different. Rasheed Wallace doesnt even play center and never has. In portland, Sabonis was the center. In Detroit, it was Ben Wallace and now Maxille. I thought you were talking about a true big man. You know a Shaq, Mutumbo, Olajuwon etc....Wallace's main threat is from the perimeter and his three point shot. He isnt dominant in the post and isnt dominate on defense. Nobody fears his defense or shot blocking skills. Jordan didnt have a big man but he had the two best defensive players in the league..if you consider rasheed wallace a big man, than go ahead and put Rodman down.....

The point is that Rasheed Wallace was for all purposes a center masquerading as a power forward.

In Portland, they had Sabonis.  Obviously Sabonis is a good center, but he'd get trounced if he played power forward every night.  Wallace had the versatility to play PF, and play it well, while also playing center if he had to.  Alas, he didn't, due to the team dynamics during his career.

The same goes for Detroit.

As for Rasheed Wallace not being a defensive presence?

He is tied for tenth in active players for career blocks, and he's 40th in the NBA (that includes the ABA) FOR HIS CAREER.

My links are here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_active.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_career.html

If you notice, Ben Wallace is ahead of him in both.  So do you blame the Pistons for doing what they did? 

Instead, that reinforces my point even stronger. The Pistons got the best of both worlds.  They got a two-headed monster.  Big Ben held down the paint at the center spot. while Rasheed Wallace got to feast offensively at the PF spot, while providing great help defense and many blocks. 

Which, again, shows how great MJ was.  You can't even include the Pistons as a team that won without a strong inside game.  It's very hard to argue this.

(And keep in mind that Rasheed Wallace is getting older.  He was much more of an inside player when he was younger.)

EDIT: Rasheed Wallace is also 54th in blocks per game for his career, including the ABA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html

Connelly

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Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2008, 04:50:58 PM »
It is too early to tell for Kobe.  From an athletic/skills standpoint, I don't see him being vastly different than Jordan.  The ability to win championships is the difference between the two now.  Kobe still has 8-10 years left to catch up in that category, so lets not dump on him too soon. 

Other issues:

- Jordan took essentially 2 years off for baseball.  Had he stayed in the league, I think he could have cemented his place in this argument with 8+ consecutive rings.  I don't know if he could have done that, but it needs to be considered.  Let Kobe take 2 years off to play another sport and see how many rings he ends up with.

- While we may currently have some taller, more athletic players in the NBA, I don't know if the overall level of competition has been as good as times in the past.  I will say that the level of competition is definitely on the upswing, but it's hard finding players now who could make the original Dream Team.  Sure, we've got 7 footers shooting 3's - wait - really think about that.  WTF is a 7 footer doing shooting a 3 to begin with?  I don't know if this is a positive sign or a sign that there aren't enough quality post players in the NBA.  I don't doubt that we might have some better ways to train, diet, etc., but the system in our country that produces players is inferior to what we had 20 years ago.  Excellent athletes are pumped through college quickly (if at all) and then put on the court with less basketball knowledge.  Note how the USA is getting burned in international competition (there are other reasons for this as well).




UnbiasedObserver

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Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2008, 05:00:14 PM »
It is too early to tell for Kobe.  From an athletic/skills standpoint, I don't see him being vastly different than Jordan.  The ability to win championships is the difference between the two now.  Kobe still has 8-10 years left to catch up in that category, so lets not dump on him too soon. 

Fair enough.  I'm not saying that Kobe could not surpass Jordan, but currently it's no contest if we're measuring by the ability to win championships. 

Other issues:

- Jordan took essentially 2 years off for baseball.  Had he stayed in the league, I think he could have cemented his place in this argument with 8+ consecutive rings.  I don't know if he could have done that, but it needs to be considered.  Let Kobe take 2 years off to play another sport and see how many rings he ends up with.

I still cannot believe that he did this. 

- While we may currently have some taller, more athletic players in the NBA, I don't know if the overall level of competition has been as good as times in the past.  I will say that the level of competition is definitely on the upswing, but it's hard finding players now who could make the original Dream Team.  Sure, we've got 7 footers shooting 3's - wait - really think about that.  WTF is a 7 footer doing shooting a 3 to begin with?  I don't know if this is a positive sign or a sign that there aren't enough quality post players in the NBA.  I don't doubt that we might have some better ways to train, diet, etc., but the system in our country that produces players is inferior to what we had 20 years ago.  Excellent athletes are pumped through college quickly (if at all) and then put on the court with less basketball knowledge.  Note how the USA is getting burned in international competition (there are other reasons for this as well).

I agree. This is often an unchallenged assumption. 

Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2008, 05:27:40 PM »
I agreed that most championships came with dominant big men.....The only team that I can remember was the pistons. Unless you can ben wallace dominant....

The Pistons had Rasheed Wallace.  He's essentially a center, but they put Ben Wallace at center because he's a defensive beast.

Again, MJ could win without a dominating big men.  He might be the only great player to have done so.  That makes him the best player of his era.  While Kobe is the best in the NBA now,
he's not the same caliber. I'm sorry. 

I guess our word of big man is much different. Rasheed Wallace doesnt even play center and never has. In portland, Sabonis was the center. In Detroit, it was Ben Wallace and now Maxille. I thought you were talking about a true big man. You know a Shaq, Mutumbo, Olajuwon etc....Wallace's main threat is from the perimeter and his three point shot. He isnt dominant in the post and isnt dominate on defense. Nobody fears his defense or shot blocking skills. Jordan didnt have a big man but he had the two best defensive players in the league..if you consider rasheed wallace a big man, than go ahead and put Rodman down.....

The point is that Rasheed Wallace was for all purposes a center masquerading as a power forward.

In Portland, they had Sabonis.  Obviously Sabonis is a good center, but he'd get trounced if he played power forward every night.  Wallace had the versatility to play PF, and play it well, while also playing center if he had to.  Alas, he didn't, due to the team dynamics during his career.

The same goes for Detroit.

As for Rasheed Wallace not being a defensive presence?

He is tied for tenth in active players for career blocks, and he's 40th in the NBA (that includes the ABA) FOR HIS CAREER.

My links are here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_active.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_career.html

If you notice, Ben Wallace is ahead of him in both.  So do you blame the Pistons for doing what they did? 

Instead, that reinforces my point even stronger. The Pistons got the best of both worlds.  They got a two-headed monster.  Big Ben held down the paint at the center spot. while Rasheed Wallace got to feast offensively at the PF spot, while providing great help defense and many blocks. 

Which, again, shows how great MJ was.  You can't even include the Pistons as a team that won without a strong inside game.  It's very hard to argue this.

(And keep in mind that Rasheed Wallace is getting older.  He was much more of an inside player when he was younger.)

EDIT: Rasheed Wallace is also 54th in blocks per game for his career, including the ABA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html

If were going to base this whole arguement off of championships, than Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time. Back to Rasheed Wallace. He is a power forward and always will be.  Ben Wallace is a poor man's rodman.  Rodman won numerous defensive player of the year awards and made numerous all star selections.  Rasheed is a deep ball shooter.  He is not feared defensively.  He is bigger than maxille but maxille plays center...? Because Sheed doesnt play like a big man. He cant handle howard down low.

Your right, Kobe still has another ten years left. He came into the leagues straight out of college.  I've always said that the big men from jordans era were better.  But I believe the overall talent today is better.  Athletes are supposed to get bigger, stronger and faster, and they have.  Nobody has addressed the fact that zone defenses werent allowed in jordans era...only if kobe had the privalege of facing man defense night in and night out.  Jordan is the greatest player and to reach his status, Kobe needs a few more rings.  I like the direction the lakers are heading in now.  They are putting together the pieces to have another dynasty...

P.S How long has sheed been in the league 13 years or so? He should be top ten for active players with blocks, look how long he's played.. Who is still active from his era...? and who is still good from his era...?

Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2008, 05:30:23 PM »
I agreed that most championships came with dominant big men.....The only team that I can remember was the pistons. Unless you can ben wallace dominant....

The Pistons had Rasheed Wallace.  He's essentially a center, but they put Ben Wallace at center because he's a defensive beast.

Again, MJ could win without a dominating big men.  He might be the only great player to have done so.  That makes him the best player of his era.  While Kobe is the best in the NBA now,
he's not the same caliber. I'm sorry. 

I guess our word of big man is much different. Rasheed Wallace doesnt even play center and never has. In portland, Sabonis was the center. In Detroit, it was Ben Wallace and now Maxille. I thought you were talking about a true big man. You know a Shaq, Mutumbo, Olajuwon etc....Wallace's main threat is from the perimeter and his three point shot. He isnt dominant in the post and isnt dominate on defense. Nobody fears his defense or shot blocking skills. Jordan didnt have a big man but he had the two best defensive players in the league..if you consider rasheed wallace a big man, than go ahead and put Rodman down.....

The point is that Rasheed Wallace was for all purposes a center masquerading as a power forward.

In Portland, they had Sabonis.  Obviously Sabonis is a good center, but he'd get trounced if he played power forward every night.  Wallace had the versatility to play PF, and play it well, while also playing center if he had to.  Alas, he didn't, due to the team dynamics during his career.

The same goes for Detroit.

As for Rasheed Wallace not being a defensive presence?

He is tied for tenth in active players for career blocks, and he's 40th in the NBA (that includes the ABA) FOR HIS CAREER.

My links are here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_active.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_career.html

If you notice, Ben Wallace is ahead of him in both.  So do you blame the Pistons for doing what they did? 

Instead, that reinforces my point even stronger. The Pistons got the best of both worlds.  They got a two-headed monster.  Big Ben held down the paint at the center spot. while Rasheed Wallace got to feast offensively at the PF spot, while providing great help defense and many blocks. 

Which, again, shows how great MJ was.  You can't even include the Pistons as a team that won without a strong inside game.  It's very hard to argue this.

(And keep in mind that Rasheed Wallace is getting older.  He was much more of an inside player when he was younger.)

EDIT: Rasheed Wallace is also 54th in blocks per game for his career, including the ABA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html

Elton Brand has been in the league half as long as Sheed and beat him out..and he's only 6'8.Jermaine oneal and ben wallace have also been in the league for shorter periods of time....Look at the people on the whole list..? A lot of them arent respected as defensive players and have never made an all defensive team.....

UnbiasedObserver

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Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2008, 05:51:48 PM »

If were going to base this whole arguement off of championships, than Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time.

It's part of the equation.

MJ is as physically gifted as Kobe, in terms of ability to put up numbers, but he also can win championships without a solid inside game.


This is why Kobe is not as good as MJ...yet.

Back to Rasheed Wallace. He is a power forward and always will be. 

He's a power forward because of the uniqueness of the teams on which he played.

He could've played center if he had to.

Ben Wallace is a poor man's rodman.  Rodman won numerous defensive player of the year awards and made numerous all star selections.

I agree with you here.  However, combined with Rasheed Wallace, the Pistons had at least a solid inside game.

Besides, the point is moot. You provided one possible (and I stress "possible," as I have shown that this is most likely false) counterexample, when the NBA has been around for decades.  Show me another great player that won it all without a solid inside game.
 
  Rasheed is a deep ball shooter.  He is not feared defensively.  He is bigger than maxille but maxille plays center...? Because Sheed doesnt play like a big man. He cant handle howard down low.

How old are you?  (I'm not saying that to be funny.)

Rasheed back in the day had an inside game.  It wasn't that long ago, and I know I'm not TOO old.  (I"m only 24.)

Of course Maxiel plays center. He's: a) younger; b) in the playoffs, they want to keep Wallace fresh offensively and out of foul trouble. 

But I agree that Howard would "probably" win the matchup with Howard in Wallace's prime, but it would be closer than you think. Secondly, how many centers could match Howard?  Even if I concede that Howard would beat Wallace head-to-head, it still doesn't touch my argument that the Pistons had a solid inside game.

 
Your right, Kobe still has another ten years left. He came into the leagues straight out of college.  I've always said that the big men from jordans era were better.  But I believe the overall talent today is better.  Athletes are supposed to get bigger, stronger and faster, and they have.  Nobody has addressed the fact that zone defenses werent allowed in jordans era...only if kobe had the privalege of facing man defense night in and night out.  Jordan is the greatest player and to reach his status, Kobe needs a few more rings.  I like the direction the lakers are heading in now.  They are putting together the pieces to have another dynasty...

I really don't think that the zone defense has done much in the NBA.  Players are too fast and too good of shooters for a zone to do much.  I think Jordan would feast on zones today...

P.S How long has sheed been in the league 13 years or so? He should be top ten for active players with blocks, look how long he's played.. Who is still active from his era...? and who is still good from his era...?

Hence the reason why I edited and even included his blocks per game, since I expected this rebuttal.

He's almost top 50 all-time in blocks per game. 

I'd say he's a decent defensive player.

Are you honestly going to say otherwise?  ???

Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2008, 10:11:53 PM »

If were going to base this whole arguement off of championships, than Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time.

It's part of the equation.

MJ is as physically gifted as Kobe, in terms of ability to put up numbers, but he also can win championships without a solid inside game.


This is why Kobe is not as good as MJ...yet.

Back to Rasheed Wallace. He is a power forward and always will be. 

He's a power forward because of the uniqueness of the teams on which he played.

He could've played center if he had to.

Ben Wallace is a poor man's rodman.  Rodman won numerous defensive player of the year awards and made numerous all star selections.

I agree with you here.  However, combined with Rasheed Wallace, the Pistons had at least a solid inside game.

Besides, the point is moot. You provided one possible (and I stress "possible," as I have shown that this is most likely false) counterexample, when the NBA has been around for decades.  Show me another great player that won it all without a solid inside game.
 
  Rasheed is a deep ball shooter.  He is not feared defensively.  He is bigger than maxille but maxille plays center...? Because Sheed doesnt play like a big man. He cant handle howard down low.

How old are you?  (I'm not saying that to be funny.)

Rasheed back in the day had an inside game.  It wasn't that long ago, and I know I'm not TOO old.  (I"m only 24.)

Of course Maxiel plays center. He's: a) younger; b) in the playoffs, they want to keep Wallace fresh offensively and out of foul trouble. 

But I agree that Howard would "probably" win the matchup with Howard in Wallace's prime, but it would be closer than you think. Secondly, how many centers could match Howard?  Even if I concede that Howard would beat Wallace head-to-head, it still doesn't touch my argument that the Pistons had a solid inside game.

 
Your right, Kobe still has another ten years left. He came into the leagues straight out of college.  I've always said that the big men from jordans era were better.  But I believe the overall talent today is better.  Athletes are supposed to get bigger, stronger and faster, and they have.  Nobody has addressed the fact that zone defenses werent allowed in jordans era...only if kobe had the privalege of facing man defense night in and night out.  Jordan is the greatest player and to reach his status, Kobe needs a few more rings.  I like the direction the lakers are heading in now.  They are putting together the pieces to have another dynasty...

I really don't think that the zone defense has done much in the NBA.  Players are too fast and too good of shooters for a zone to do much.  I think Jordan would feast on zones today...

P.S How long has sheed been in the league 13 years or so? He should be top ten for active players with blocks, look how long he's played.. Who is still active from his era...? and who is still good from his era...?

Hence the reason why I edited and even included his blocks per game, since I expected this rebuttal.

He's almost top 50 all-time in blocks per game. 

I'd say he's a decent defensive player.

Are you honestly going to say otherwise?  ???



Sheed is a GREAT player!! One of the most athletic guys I have saw!! But he's not a true big man. He is a tweener...A guy who plays center if he has too.  But coaches would rather get another guy to compliment him.  Jordan had a solid inside game if you take into account Rodman, horace grant, and cartwright.  They dont stand out but they play well together.  Sheed is a very great player and decent on defense. You cant always go off of statistics.  Just because a guy blocks shots doesnt mean he is a good defensive player. Just because a guy leads the league in steals doesnt mean he has good defense. He could just play the passing lanes well.  A good defensive player shuts people down or at least alters there game.  Sheed would never stick a true big man.  Maxiel is much shorter than sheed but plays like a center.

I am not taking anythinng away from Jordan.  Out of all the the championship teams, he had the least to work with down low. But defensively, he had the best.  Show me another team that had 3 all star players, three first team all nba defensive teams, and rodman,jordan and pippen have all won defensive player of the year.  I guarantee you will not find a team who has been equipped with that....

We are talking about the NBA here. Every team has a decent big man now or a good tweener.  Every single team pretty much...Even the horrible teams like the knicks have decent inside players....

Jordan could afford to sick pippen on the drexlers and the best players...Kobe is a first team all defense player and takes on that task night in and night out.  You'll see.....

Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2008, 10:17:24 PM »
We all know that while Jordan may not have had an inside presence, he had the best supporting cast....Any nba analyst or specialist will tell you that.  From armstrong to pippen, to ron harper, to kucoc, to paxson, to rodman..Jordan hands down had the best supporting casts. Hats off to the bulls GM back than.....

UnbiasedObserver

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Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2008, 09:03:38 AM »
Sheed is a GREAT player!! One of the most athletic guys I have saw!! But he's not a true big man. He is a tweener...A guy who plays center if he has too.  But coaches would rather get another guy to compliment him.  Jordan had a solid inside game if you take into account Rodman, horace grant, and cartwright.  They dont stand out but they play well together.  Sheed is a very great player and decent on defense. You cant always go off of statistics.  Just because a guy blocks shots doesnt mean he is a good defensive player. Just because a guy leads the league in steals doesnt mean he has good defense. He could just play the passing lanes well.  A good defensive player shuts people down or at least alters there game.  Sheed would never stick a true big man.  Maxiel is much shorter than sheed but plays like a center.

I am not taking anythinng away from Jordan.  Out of all the the championship teams, he had the least to work with down low. But defensively, he had the best.  Show me another team that had 3 all star players, three first team all nba defensive teams, and rodman,jordan and pippen have all won defensive player of the year.  I guarantee you will not find a team who has been equipped with that....

We are talking about the NBA here. Every team has a decent big man now or a good tweener.  Every single team pretty much...Even the horrible teams like the knicks have decent inside players....

Jordan could afford to sick pippen on the drexlers and the best players...Kobe is a first team all defense player and takes on that task night in and night out.  You'll see.....

Ok, you admitted that he had the least to work with down low.

That shows his greatness, even with great defensive players.

Look, I"m not looking to demean Kobe.  He's the best in the game today.  But it's going to take a lot for me to believe that he's better than Mike...yet.

Take it easy. 

Connelly

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Re: MJ OR KOBE?
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2008, 09:26:57 AM »
We all know that while Jordan may not have had an inside presence, he had the best supporting cast....Any nba analyst or specialist will tell you that.  From armstrong to pippen, to ron harper, to kucoc, to paxson, to rodman..Jordan hands down had the best supporting casts. Hats off to the bulls GM back than.....

I do believe he had a good supporting cast with some years much better than others.  However, when he had his best team (Pippen & Rodman), he didn't just win a title - he set the record for regular season wins. 

This year Kobe finally has a good supporting cast.  I would consider it equal or greater to several of Jordan's teams.