Jobs When We Graduate (Directed to GillestheGreat mostly)

[crazycanuck]

Dear GillestheGreat,
I thought I would ask these questions publicly for the benefit of all. Hopefully that is Ok.

For context, I'm going to a top US law school this year (not quite as high up the rankings as Penn, but almost), and according to the employment stats, as long as I am in the top half of the class I should have no trouble getting a top paying job...(well, that is if I were an American...for me, I'm not sure, hence the post).

...my questions for you are, "What distinctions were there between you and your classmates if any, as you progressed through the law school journey as a Canadian? And would you mind sharing with us your experiences through the various stages, and addressing anything else we need to know?"

Please include:
- first summer work and what possibilities were available to you (between 1L and 2L)
- the interview process (especially how firms responded to you being a Canadian, and what they were looking for from you that would cause them to hire you over an American)
- intership outcomes (between 2L and 3L)
- final employment outcome (do you still pay Canadian taxes, and does your visa restrict you?)
- anything else you think is of key importance for us.

(Anyone else who is in a similar position to GillestheGreat, please feel free to contribute, and by similar position I mean the Class of 2007 or graduating soon).

Thank-you.

[upgrade]

Who is GillestheGreat?

[crazycanuck]

Who is GillestheGreat?

I'm actually not sure. I was taken in by "theGreat"....j/k.

Seriously though, I noticed that he/she is in the class of Penn 07, and if that is the case, I want to hear from them.

[Astro]

This could get interesting.  gilles isn't an '07 grad, though.  He's either an '09 or '10 grad.  Can't remember exactly which.

[MorningStar]

It's perceived as better or worse than its U.S News ranking?

[gillesthegreat]

Haven't logged in a long time, and to my surprise, something addressed to me?! Wow.

First, clarification: I am part of the class of 2010.
Second: I'm not exactly typical, even for a Canadian. So my experience is different.
Third: you may not even care anymore about the answers.

That said, I'll still have a shot at this.

"What distinctions were there between you and your classmates if any, as you progressed through the law school journey as a Canadian?"
 - Not much. Really. Except in Constitutional law, I would get called on as 'the expert on Canada', and also, interestingly enough, the expert on France and Europe. Apart from that, people don't care that much. Really.

"first summer work and what possibilities were available to you (between 1L and 2L"
 - Very different from anyone else. You can work; just get the OPT (sign up for it in January ... it takes about 3 months). My personal experience: couldn't get a firm job, since I'm older and over-qualified. Really. Scary, in fact, but what firms were looking for is cannon fodder. Or people to make coffee.

"the interview process (especially how firms responded to you being a Canadian, and what they were looking for from you that would cause them to hire you over an American)"
 - Firms don't care. And technically, they cannot even ask about nationality; only about 'are you legally allowed to work in the US'. They didn't look for anything special or particular.

"(do you still pay Canadian taxes, and does your visa restrict you?)"
No. If you don't spend 6 months in Canada, you don't pay taxes there, or so is my understanding.

Now for the juicy question:"intership outcomes (between 2L and 3L)"
Bare with me here ... this has nothing to do with nationality, but you need to know this: THE MARKET IS HORRIBLE. So, as you're working your way through 1L year, keep this in mind: you will not get a firm job as a 1L. Forget it. Not gonna happen. Don't waste your time, don't drop 100 resumes in the mail on Dec 1st like I did. I got nothing even when the economy was decent.

So hear this ... get a judicial internship, or work for some non profit, or anything more glamorous then working for a professor on campus. Can't stress that enough. It will be a rat race this summer and even worse next September to get a firm job. You need to show something interesting on your resume.

One issue you may want to consider also ... try to develop ties to where you are, or to where you aspire to be. Firms care an awful lot about 'ties to the city'. Some cities more than others (Philadelphia, for one), with New York the only exception. So if you want to practice in Boston, join the Boston society of something or other. If you want to practice in your local market, join  some organization, some group, anything ... It will help.

Best of luck, and ask if you want to know anything more.

[meggo]

^
thanks for the advice. It's great and really interesting.

Regarding taxes. It's very tricky. Basically, the Canadian government will try and get them from you any way they can  I lived abroad for two years and was earning money and had to declare myself a non-resident so that I didn't have to pay several thousand dollars in CDN taxes (mind, I was already paying just under 25% of my income in British taxes). When I came back, it was this huge hassle because I had earned some money in Britain that fiscal year, and some money in Canada. And it was a big mess to sort out (I think I still owe them like $30 or something). This obviously won't be a problem if you don't plan on working in Canada, but it's something to keep in mind (and I had a professional tax accountant sorting it out fyi, just so you know it's not simply me being incompetent)

[rhombot]

good post, gilles. i just think it should be known that there is a pitfall with OPT, which is that there is a finite supply of OPT time - twelve months - which you can use while you're studying or after you graduate. so by opting for OPT during summer internships, you're reducing the amount of OPT time available after the end of your studies. this may not be a big problem for lawyers, given that it's not too hard to get work authorization through the HB or TN visa process, but it's an issue to be aware of. it might be useful if you can't land a regular job right after you get your degree, and you need to do temporary/contract work with employers who don't want the hassle of sponsoring a visa.

the alternative to OPT during law school summers is CPT (curricular practical training), which means your summer internship is part of your curriculum, like an internship. this involves a certain amount of paperwork, and in my case it involved paying for 1 summertime credit. some other schools make it a 0-credit internship, meaning no charge, and that's fine from the federal government's perspective. my international student office recommended CPT, even with the charge, over OPT.