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DodgerLaw

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2005, 08:50:59 PM »
Fair enough, BigTex. Most everybody supported the war in Afghanistan. My doubts about those on the Left wherein Afghanistan is concerned is that I suspect/wonder if many of them would be nitpicking a lot more about things there if they didn't have the Iraq issue.

As far as whether or not Iraq was a smart move, or the smartest move, that can be reasonably debated.

Two questions for you:

1) What would you have done to fight the War on Terror?
2) Do you think that I am correct in my belief that many on the Left would oppose the Bush Administration for most any use of the military in a pro-active prosecution of the War on Terror?

BigTex

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2005, 08:55:24 PM »
well tex, that was a stereotyping if i ever saw one.

true. just putting up a mirror to the left wing steroetype presented by the OP. I try not to buy into that stereotype, but threads that start off like this make it hard.

InVinoVeritas

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2005, 09:04:41 PM »
The real difference between left and right as far as Iraq is concernced really isn't about Iraq at all. It's about how, or if, to fight the War on Terror. Most on the right want to fight the War on Terror aggressively. Most on the left want to fight the war defensively or not at all.

The left's complaints would be much the same if the U.S. and its allies had taken any other pro-active military action anywhere in the world with the possible exception of Afghanistan.

how about focusing US resources on a place that actually had meaningful ties to al-qaeda.  before the invasion, iraq/qaeda ties were tenuous, at best.

maybe the US would have been better off invading saudi arabia.  seems like there are tons of terrorists or terrorists-to-be hiding out somewhere outside of Riyadh.

DodgerLaw

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2005, 09:07:44 PM »
The real difference between left and right as far as Iraq is concernced really isn't about Iraq at all. It's about how, or if, to fight the War on Terror. Most on the right want to fight the War on Terror aggressively. Most on the left want to fight the war defensively or not at all.

The left's complaints would be much the same if the U.S. and its allies had taken any other pro-active military action anywhere in the world with the possible exception of Afghanistan.

how about focusing US resources on a place that actually had meaningful ties to al-qaeda.  before the invasion, iraq/qaeda ties were tenuous, at best.

maybe the US would have been better off invading saudi arabia.  seems like there are tons of terrorists or terrorists-to-be hiding out somewhere outside of Riyadh.

Putting more pressure on Saudi Arabia to go after terrorists is a very good idea. Would you, Vino, or others on the Left out there, actually support invading Saudi Arabia?

BigTex

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2005, 09:27:47 PM »
1) What would you have done to fight the War on Terror?

I don't have the requisite information to make an informed decision. I was grudgingly in favor of the Iraq war when Bush said they had nukes and WMD and ties to 9/11 and were an imminent threat. Ultimately, i don't know what Bush's motivation was for that war, but i feel confident that it wasn't what he said it was. That ticks me off. In all honesty, if it was a Democrat doing this i'd be just as pissed.

2) Do you think that I am correct in my belief that many on the Left would oppose the Bush Administration for most any use of the military in a pro-active prosecution of the War on Terror?

There are many nutjobs on the left that want to sit down and smoke a peace pipe with Osama, just like there are many nutjobs on the right who want to invade any and every Arab country. The true source of disagreement is deeper and more fundamental.

The left does, ultimately, want to get along with other cultures and people of radically different religion and values. In fact, they actually tend to LIKE this kind of diversity. They want to find common ground, compromise, and find some way to make seemingly incompatible ideas work. The right views this as a weakness. Deep down, the right doesn't really want diversity and the compromise it entails. They want the rest of the world to model themselves after us, our value system, and our brand of democracy.

Currently, the fight is phrased as "who has the quicker trigger finger". Republicans brag that they'd pull the trigger quicker. Democrats try to one-up them by saying they'd pull it even quicker. In fact, the thrust of your question is "how fast would you pull the trigger? I hope as quick as me!". But really, the source of the left v. right battle is not who would kick ass quicker or harder. The basic difference is what I just described above. That basic difference leads to all the other differences we quibble about.

InVinoVeritas

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2005, 09:30:25 PM »
i'd be ok with invading if:

1. we know terrorists are planning to attack the US
2. those terrorists are in Saudi Arabia
3. the Saudi Arabian government does nothing to prevent those terrorists from carrying out their plans.

DodgerLaw

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2005, 09:39:33 PM »
1) What would you have done to fight the War on Terror?
I don't have the requisite information to make an informed decision.
There is a dearth of ideas from Democrats who should know on this. That is one of the reasons I believe most on the left are not really all that interested in actively fighting terrorism.
2) Do you think that I am correct in my belief that many on the Left would oppose the Bush Administration for most any use of the military in a pro-active prosecution of the War on Terror?

The left does, ultimately, want to get along with other cultures and people of radically different religion and values. In fact, they actually tend to LIKE this kind of diversity. They want to find common ground, compromise, and find some way to make seemingly incompatible ideas work. The right views this as a weakness. Deep down, the right doesn't really want diversity and the compromise it entails. They want the rest of the world to model themselves after us, our value system, and our brand of democracy.

I strongly disagree with the idea that the Right doesn't want to get along with other cultures and people of radically different religions and values. Sadly, there are some people of other religions who have no interest in getting along with America. I, for one, certainly support the idea of worldwide democracy.

InVinoVeritas

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2005, 09:40:47 PM »
i'd be ok with invading if:

1. we know terrorists are planning to attack the US
2. those terrorists are in Saudi Arabia
3. the Saudi Arabian government does nothing to prevent those terrorists from carrying out their plans.

wow, you'd be willing to usurp their sovereignity to go after rogue terrorists, even if they aren't associated with the Govt. of that state? you are a Bush Doctrine kinda guy!

um, that's not exactly what bush did.  how'd it become his doctrine?

clearly  if a government does nothing to prevent it's citizens from attacking the citizens of another country, we've got a problem.  i don't think there's much disagreement between the right and the left on this point.  seems to me some people simply demand more proof than others.

InVinoVeritas

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2005, 09:53:09 PM »
i'd be ok with invading if:

1. we know terrorists are planning to attack the US
2. those terrorists are in Saudi Arabia
3. the Saudi Arabian government does nothing to prevent those terrorists from carrying out their plans.

wow, you'd be willing to usurp their sovereignity to go after rogue terrorists, even if they aren't associated with the Govt. of that state? you are a Bush Doctrine kinda guy!

um, that's not exactly what bush did.  how'd it become his doctrine?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_doctrine

 :D

but again, if you're sayin the bush doctrine amounts to what i've laid out, then with regards to iraq, he didn't exactly heed his own doctrine.

BigTex

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Re: True difference btwn Left and Right about Iraq
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2005, 10:15:01 PM »
you know as well as i do that comparing one to the other certainly doesn't convict Bush of ANYTHING.

i'm not talking about a court of law, i'm talking about a lower standard of common sense and general believability. The cake incident combined with Bush retaliating against the man who delivered the cake message adds up to a rotten egg.