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Author Topic: Congratulations Conndi!  (Read 2793 times)

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2005, 10:34:54 AM »
dangit BP, you killed it  :P
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2005, 07:42:30 PM »
MLK Thurgood Marshall and that entire civil rights era really don't apply to the question I asked simply because social issues at the time were seen by everyone and their was no way or situation where an african american could distance him or herself. Now Obama is a valid example but his upbringing to my knowledge (from his book) allowed him to be exposed to social realities that condi was forced to see.
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Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them..  The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.

-Fredrick Douglass

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2005, 01:41:06 PM »
MLK Thurgood Marshall and that entire civil rights era really don't apply to the question I asked simply because social issues at the time were seen by everyone and their was no way or situation where an african american could distance him or herself. Now Obama is a valid example but his upbringing to my knowledge (from his book) allowed him to be exposed to social realities that condi was forced to see.

I might have to argue you, Super.  There have always been differences in views between black figure heads, and some of those individuals did in fact, distance themselves from the group like Condi.  Look at Booker T. Washington.  A brother who was born a slave, grew up during the reconstruction, and saw black people gain their civil & political rights.  Indeed, this time period was one that yielded, what you refer to as "social issues [that] at the time were seen by everyone and their was no way or situation where an african american could distance him or herself."  Yet, while others like DeBoise and Douglass were working on making sure our rights were respected, Booker T. told blacks that they should except being separate and inferior and did not believe that black people should have the right to vote, nor should they have any political rights.  A mentality that probably earned him the title of "sell-out" or "uncle-tom" back then but by today's standards earns the title of "Secretary of State."
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2005, 01:47:18 PM »
MLK Thurgood Marshall and that entire civil rights era really don't apply to the question I asked simply because social issues at the time were seen by everyone and their was no way or situation where an african american could distance him or herself. Now Obama is a valid example but his upbringing to my knowledge (from his book) allowed him to be exposed to social realities that condi was forced to see.

I might have to argue you, Super.  There have always been differences in views between black figure heads, and some of those individuals did in fact, distance themselves from the group like Condi.  Look at Booker T. Washington.  A brother who was born a slave, grew up during the reconstruction, and saw black people gain their civil & political rights.  Indeed, this time period was one that yielded, what you refer to as "social issues at the time were seen by everyone and their was no way or situation where an african american could distance him or herself."  Yet, while others like DeBoise and Douglass were working on making sure our rights were respected, Booker T. told blacks that they should except being separate and inferior and did not believe that black people should have the right to vote, nor should they have any political rights.  A mentality that would probably earned him the title of "sell-out" or "uncle-tom" but by today's standards earns the title of "Secretary of State."

I think you could also add Thurgood Marshall and MLK as an example.  From what I've read, MLK and his movement didn't put too much faith in Marshall and the NAACP LDF's ability to secure civil rights through litigation; on the other hand, Marshall believed litigation had a better chance of securing change than the kind of mass movement MLK was leading.  It was basically a difference in methods: Marshall preferred to operate a higher level (as in top-down), trying to use the courts as agents of change, whereas MLK was more into change from the bottom-up, trying to use the people as an agent of change.  Then again, this isn't really my field of expertise anyway.  :-\
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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2005, 01:53:08 PM »
MLK Thurgood Marshall and that entire civil rights era really don't apply to the question I asked simply because social issues at the time were seen by everyone and their was no way or situation where an african american could distance him or herself. Now Obama is a valid example but his upbringing to my knowledge (from his book) allowed him to be exposed to social realities that condi was forced to see.

I might have to argue you, Super.  There have always been differences in views between black figure heads, and some of those individuals did in fact, distance themselves from the group like Condi.  Look at Booker T. Washington.  A brother who was born a slave, grew up during the reconstruction, and saw black people gain their civil & political rights.  Indeed, this time period was one that yielded, what you refer to as "social issues at the time were seen by everyone and their was no way or situation where an african american could distance him or herself."  Yet, while others like DeBoise and Douglass were working on making sure our rights were respected, Booker T. told blacks that they should except being separate and inferior and did not believe that black people should have the right to vote, nor should they have any political rights.  A mentality that would probably earned him the title of "sell-out" or "uncle-tom" but by today's standards earns the title of "Secretary of State."

I am far from being a Booker T fan, but I think that is a bit simplistic interpretation of his platform.  While it is true that he didn't believe in pushing for political rights it wasn't because he didn't believe in those rights as things from which African-Americans could benefit, but that pushing for political rights alone would not emancipate the African-American community.  Booker T believed in the long run gaining some measure of economic parity would go further in advancing African Americans than the right to vote which given the relative minority status of African Americans was not likely to substantially change the power paradigm in this country.  Booker T noted the progress other minorities made by pursuing such a strategy (for example look at what many Jewish and Irish Americans did).  Actually come to think about it 90% of African Americans backed a candidate for president and he lost--not a ringing endorsement of the political route.  Obviously there are plenty of problems with the Booker T ideology but I don't think it is a clear case of "he's a sell out" ...just a misguided man.  The truth was somewhere in the middle.

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2005, 01:54:06 PM »
Right, but I want to make sure and distinguish one thing. A difference in methods is ok, because they have the same goal in mind. A difference in goals is what I'm talking about.  I think Condi's "goal" (or outlook rather) for race relations is 180 degrees from other black leaders.  Just like Booker T. Washington's was back in the day.
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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2005, 04:15:05 PM »
Once again I think the point I'm trying to make is being missed. I believe condi is oblivious to the true social issues blacks face.  believe she dosesnt even see it as a problem. Booker T recognized it as a problem. Believe it or not their are circles you can travel in as a African American and not realize that discrimination still exists. Booker T knew discrimination was there. I can speak from first hand experiences. Condi's upbringing makes that a real possibility. Honestly she might not see discrimination as a problem. I'm not saying thats right but that is what I belive she sees. KInda like if i could do it why can't you.
UVA Class of 2009

Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them..  The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.

-Fredrick Douglass

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: Congratulations Conndi!
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2005, 08:09:16 AM »
Once again I think the point I'm trying to make is being missed. I believe condi is oblivious to the true social issues blacks face.  believe she dosesnt even see it as a problem. Booker T recognized it as a problem. Believe it or not their are circles you can travel in as a African American and not realize that discrimination still exists. Booker T knew discrimination was there. I can speak from first hand experiences. Condi's upbringing makes that a real possibility. Honestly she might not see discrimination as a problem. I'm not saying thats right but that is what I belive she sees. KInda like if i could do it why can't you.


I think you are absolutely right.  Now I have to modify my proposition.  You have taken the analysis to the next level.  Not a difference in methods to fix the condition or a difference in goals on what the condition should be, just downright oblivious to the condition altogether.
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston