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Author Topic: Pre-school study plan  (Read 6611 times)

canuck

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2004, 12:02:53 PM »
Findedeux,

thanks for clarifying because I don't think I was very clear about that.  My point is that grades appear arbitrary if you don't know how to play the game.  And I think I'm druding on a dangerous slope here as being an advocate for PLS II to make law school less arbitrary.

As for the grades in law school being indicative of it's failings - that was only part in partial to the more important fact that not everyone passes the bar.  In fact more state wide averages I see seem to hover around the 70-80% with NY and CA (the 2 most written) being around 75%.

So here's a little numbers and please chime in if you disagree.

Say 1000 students just graduates from law school.  That's less than 10% or less who did not graduate, remember.

Of those 1000 that take the bar exam and 75% pass.  So for 250 students - law school and what the profs taught has already failed them.

Now for the remaining 750 - what's not reported is how much they passed by.  And to say that all 750 have an excellent grasp of the law would be optimistic.  There are many terrible lawyers out there and law school has failed them as well.

My warning is then not to be in that group that lets law school fail them.  I think that as students, we shouldn't put our hopes in the administrative system to have a vested interest in our success.  Pessimistic?  Yes.  But I hope that as successful attorneys/judges/politicians we would do something to change the profession of law so that its institutions have more integrity.
Headed to Hofstra in August!

Findedeux

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2004, 12:11:08 PM »
Canuck: Your argument makes one very big assumption: that what you learn in law school will prepare you for the bar. I tend to think bar passage rates more strongly correlates with better law schools 1) because the students are likely to be smarter, and 2) there is a strong positive correlation between good LS's and socio-economic status. What this all leads to is that those who go to the better schools can afford to pay the 2K fee that it costs to take the BAR BRI bar review course, and they may get more from it.
   If you notice, whether it's true or not, professors tell you they do not teach you how to practice law, or what the law is. They teach you how to "think like a lawyer." Which means that law school is more theoretical than it is practical, but still necessary to be able to practice law. This goes along with the idea that professors don't test black letter law, they test fact patterns and lawyerly thinking.
   Of course, if PLSII is write, professors don't even really teach you how to think like a lawyer, much less teach you the black letter law that Mr.Falcon believes is essential to actually thinking like a lawyer.

jgruber

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2004, 12:11:36 PM »
I don't think you can assume that the system failed the 250 people in your example.  There can be many reasons for failure.
But moving on to your last point.  I take it to mean that we are responsible for our own education.  LS is not grade school or even undergrad.  We have to discover what will work for ourselves and make it work.  So I think we agree.

Of those 1000 that take the bar exam and 75% pass.  So for 250 students - law school and what the profs taught has already failed them.

Now for the remaining 750 - what's not reported is how much they passed by.  And to say that all 750 have an excellent grasp of the law would be optimistic.  There are many terrible lawyers out there and law school has failed them as well.

My warning is then not to be in that group that lets law school fail them.  I think that as students, we shouldn't put our hopes in the administrative system to have a vested interest in our success.  Pessimistic?  Yes.  But I hope that as successful attorneys/judges/politicians we would do something to change the profession of law so that its institutions have more integrity.


canuck

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2004, 12:15:18 PM »
GA Kristi,

you only have to look at the book to get testimonials from students who have had success with the PLS II approach.  that's not saying much though.  I just want to know since you've talked to current students and lawyers, those that told you to relax before going to law school - how did they do in school?  Cuz I'm just wondering if 90% or so don't get those A's, doesn't it take away from the advice by that same majority who tell you to take it easy?

JeffJoe,

you're completely right.  I can't abashedly rant about the legal profession without doing relative comparisons to doctors/dentists/nurses.  It's just that since I'm going to be a law student soon, our profession strikes a very big chord with me.  It's not enough that we have to hear the constant lawyer jokes or struggle with the dilemma of billing hours over a life.  It's not the fact that even now we can see how so many of our soon to be profession have used the law to advance greed, corruption, oppression, and hate. 

It would be nice if the starting ground of our profession would truly have the intent to produce excellent lawyers.  Maybe then so many of them wouldn't turn out to be the way they are.

Excellent points all.  My lunch break is over.  You guys have persuaded me that I'm being over-zealous.  I'll definitely try to enjoy myself more this summer and not worry too much about being under-prepared.  My family, girlfriend, and buddies will thank you for it since I'm driving them crazy these days!

 ;)
Headed to Hofstra in August!

Findedeux

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2004, 12:18:35 PM »
Typo: Your argument makes one very big assumption: that what you learn in law school will (SHOULD) prepare you for the ba

grahamers

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2004, 01:37:33 PM »
I'm reading PLS II and I have to say that there is one point that goes missing here:  in law school, with the grading curve, only 10-15% of your entire class will get those coveted A's.  What that translates into is 90% of the rest of your classmates falling into the B-average or less.

Where does everyone get this GPA concept from?  IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU GET AN A OR B!!!  All that employers want to know is you CLASS RANKING!

This should be self evident simply from the facts that:

1. Different schools grade on different curves

2. Some schools have drastically more students than others. 

You could get an A at one school while being ranked 97th and get a B at another while being ranked 20th.  (Even the percentiles are different at different schools!)

What you really mean to point out is that for SOME people who want to:

1. Get a BIG LAW job
2. Become a law professor
3. Are anal beyond belief

They should try and finish in teh top 10% of their class (NO MATTER WHAT LETTER GRADE THEY GET.)

/rant
34 years old    170 LSAT 2.33 UGPA
Accepted: Wake, Mason, Catholic, Maryland, Baltimore, WVU, Widener
Waitlisted: American
Dinged: GW, Georgetown
Still haven't heard from: Villanova
Attending Mryland

jgruber

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2004, 01:40:33 PM »
I did read in a couple of places that grades don't matter much unless you are after the biglaw job, the review or a teaching position.

One thing I read said just don't worry about the grades.  Learn and screw the grades.

grahamers

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2004, 01:45:14 PM »
I did read in a couple of places that grades don't matter much unless you are after the biglaw job, the review or a teaching position.

One thing I read said just don't worry about the grades.  Learn and screw the grades.

Yes.  However, I don't mean to imply that grades don't matter.  It's just that the extra attention and obsession pre-school is only healthy for those who feel that they have to finish in the top 10% in order to achieve their goals.  The top 10% is a very real barrier.  (Wether that's an A a B or a C grade!)  It gets you onto Law Review and almost all BIG LAW firms think of that as a "checkmark" during the hiring process.  As far as professorships, I would be suprised to find more than a handfull of profs that were not on their Law reviews at school.  So for those needing to get into the top 10% and join the Order of the Coif, go for it.  But don't worry about the LETTER you get, worry about your class rank.  (That was my main point.)
34 years old    170 LSAT 2.33 UGPA
Accepted: Wake, Mason, Catholic, Maryland, Baltimore, WVU, Widener
Waitlisted: American
Dinged: GW, Georgetown
Still haven't heard from: Villanova
Attending Mryland

dta

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2004, 01:52:11 PM »
GA: Once again, the only problem I have with people telling me not to study is that there does not seem to be a control group and a group that actually did the studying. If someone who had studied before they entered law school told me I shouldn't study, I would take this advice much more heavily than someone who had not studied.

I agree. All the people who tell me not to study seem WAAAAAAY too interested in making sure I don't study. No one ever says: "Hey, I don't think you should study before law school. But that's me - maybe it will work for you.". No. They all seem to say "If you study before law school you are doomed. Not studying is the only path to success.". I can only take from this that those who choose not to study and are religiously determined to spread this faith are in some way threatened by those who choose to study. Thus, their advice can be ignored.

dta

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Re: Pre-school study plan
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2004, 02:04:46 PM »
In my view, studying material suggested by those who have been through/taught law school is a patently valid strategy to take before entering law school. There is no way such study could harm one, and at the VERY LEAST it may make one more confident beginning law school. There is something seriously wrong with anyone who would vehemently argue against someone who wishes to adopt this strategy for him or herself. You don't want to do it - fine. But don't tell me I should just "chill" like you. Let everyone adopt his/her own strategy.

None of the people who choose to study before law school ever seem to be determined to indoctrinate others into adopting the same strategy. But it seems everyone who chooses the "i'm just gonna chill" route is adamant about making sure everyone else does the same. There's something funky about that.