Affirmative action = bullsh*t

[John Galt]

then send your kids to an inner city school and see how they fare.

[John Galt]

I took a Sociology class (yes, intro) and we watched a really good documentary about education in the U.S.  Many of the schools in the poor, primarily black areas were deplorable.  These kids are sent the message from age 5 that they are not worthy of a warm, dry classroom with enough books, paper, and pencils.  Where's the incentive to learn?  Where's the desire to spend 8 hours per day there?  To add insult to injury, they would get to see nice schools when they traveled there for sports or other programs, and the inequity would become very personal.  If your school didn't have working plumbing, but had crumbling ceilings and rats, would you want to go there?  Would you want to teach there?  This documentary showed that when the school building was safe, warm, and inviting, with a positive attitude toward learning, drop out rates decreased and test scores increased.

In fact, some students in the DC public school system took matters into their own hands by taking pictures of the deplorable conditions this past spring with their cell phones and sending them to the media.  Parents and students had been complaining for years about the broken lockers, crumbling walls and ceilings, and unsanitary lunch rooms to no avail.  The schools wouldn't allow the media in to take their own pictures, but the students were more than happy to capture the dangerous, unsanitary conditions for them.

   Whenver a topic of sociology comes up, I retain a great deal of caution. The entire field is a practice of circular reasoning in the guise of pseudo-science.  In hard sciences, one gathers evidence and tries to disprove a hypothesis, or in essense practices a 'must be true' mentality.  Sociology works backwards, by assuming one of 2 major paradigms, functional and conflict and recklessly fits the evidence into the 'could be true' world.
   Obviously if one assumes a conflict paradigm and seeks evidence to support this social-stratification theory, any theory, regardless of evidence to the contrary, can be supported.  No different than a pessimist, optimist and neutralist view of the world.  What I find most disturbing is the acceptance of social conspiracy theories to racial problems.  It simple terms, you can never challenge a conspiracy minded individual because the challenge is considered part of the conspiracy.
    As for conditions of the schools, I submit this is a minor issue.  I use to be a sentimentalist to the same type of stories of your post, but after travelling to 3rd world countries and observing the conditions that people live in and do excel, I quickly grew a tough-love attitude. If one is more concerned about the maudlin color of paint than burying their heads in the books, that is an artifact of mismatched priorities.
    While I don't dispute that changing the majority view is part of the solution, the more significant cahnge has to come within the individuals of the minority groups.  Why do some minority and immigrant groups excel while others continue to languish, while experiencing equivalent discrimination?  The answer is related to how and the extent that individuals within the groups process their social persona.  Currently, African American role-models are not a positive influence.  Hollywood has some influence on this, as do the political leaders.  If one is constantly barraged with allegations of injustice that has and continues to happen to their people, the negative becomes internalized and magnified beyond a level that is realistic.  The effect is very similar to a person who rightly or wrongly believes their parents are to blame for the inadequacies later in life.
    While I remain skeptical of the magnitude, there was an interesting passage in 'blink' talking about how some groups of African Americans who were asked to identify their race on the GRE, prior to taking the exam, performed 50% worse than those African Americans who were not asked to identify.  In essense, their perception of themself as part of the group has a more damaging influence than the clandestine white test-takers trying to keep groups down through standardized testing.

Lets just focus on the fourth paragraph of your post. I think you have oversimplified the reason some minority groups excel. If you look at the Irish, the Itallians, East Asians, South Asians (to some extent), and some other minorities one of the primary reasons they succeed is because white society embraces them with opportunity. You guys study sociology, correct? Well then you've probably heard of the model minority theory. Indeed, these minorities succeed by proving that they are not black. I'm sure you agree that in terms of race, blacks are at the bottom of the barrel socially - so comparing other minority groups to blacks is misleading because there hasn't been the same level of persistant discrimination. To say that these minority groups face equivalent discrimination is a bold and ignorant statement. If you like a more elaborate post about the cause and effects of the model minority theory then I'll be happy to provide it.

It is also interesting that you say blacks internalize the negativity beyond what is realistic. Curiously, when bombarded with facts and history, white people seem to absolve themselves of responsibility more than what is realistic. Funny, huh? Personal responsibility is only half the battle, the schools that discriminated in the past and society as a whole needs to do their part too.

[DMG]

Sociology is a pseudo-science. And even that is being VERY generous. In reality, a more appropriate description is something along the lines of total sh*t. Its nothing more than liberal indoctrination taught in universities.

[ImVinny!]

"Curiously, when bombarded with facts and history, white people seem to absolve themselves of responsibility more than what is realistic. Funny, huh?"


And what the heck would you be talking abotu here? You REALLY think that white people today are to blame for the injustices that took place two hundred years ago, and that they should somehow PAY for this? Give me a break.

[John Galt]

No, I think you and the rest of society is responsible for perpetuating the injustices that have existed throughout history in terms of fair lending practices, in terms of economic development in inner cities, in terms of urban planning and housing, in terms of school funding and education policy, and in terms of social hierarchy. Not to mention, you are benefitting from the persistant, and obvious, racist policies of the past even if only marginally. Thus, you are responsible whether you like it are not...just like all blacks are affected by past discrimination whether they like it or not.

[John Galt]

Sociology is a pseudo-science. And even that is being VERY generous. In reality, a more appropriate description is something along the lines of total sh*t. Its nothing more than liberal indoctrination taught in universities.

Yeah i'm more of a fan of history, political science, ethics, and biology.

[Nemesis]

"Curiously, when bombarded with facts and history, white people seem to absolve themselves of responsibility more than what is realistic. Funny, huh?"


And what the heck would you be talking abotu here? You REALLY think that white people today are to blame for the injustices that took place two hundred years ago, and that they should somehow PAY for this? Give me a break.

Also, I think you're losing perspective of the fact that these injustices are not isolated to "two hundred years ago". The US government praticed and enforced discrimination against people of color a mere 50 years ago.

[twarga]

"Curiously, when bombarded with facts and history, white people seem to absolve themselves of responsibility more than what is realistic. Funny, huh?"


And what the heck would you be talking abotu here? You REALLY think that white people today are to blame for the injustices that took place two hundred years ago, and that they should somehow PAY for this? Give me a break.

Also, I think you're losing perspective of the fact that these injustices are not isolated to "two hundred years ago". The US government praticed and enforced discrimination against people of color a mere 50 years ago.

We need to start with the little children by fixing up our inner-city and rural schools and make them an environment that fosters a love of learning.  One school in the documentary I saw showed 1st graders putting their coats on to go outside to the port-a-johns because the school had no working plumbing.  At another school, the desks were arranged around the buckets on the floor that catch the dripping rain from the leaky roof, and the children kept their coats on because the heat doesn't work.  How can you concentrate on ABCs when you're freezing your butt off and there's a roach in your lunch?  When your elementary, middle and high schools are falling apart, what message does that send?  It says that education is not a priority and that the students are not worthy of it.  That is a powerful message and one that impacts a person their whole life. 

AA may help create leaders in these poor communities who say 'enough is enough' and start making quality public education a reality, and is therefore worthwhile.

[howarddavis]

HowardDavis - your philosophy class was obviously intro then. Who were you studying? Kant? Or were you studying Mill? We discriminate against the majority all the time. We discriminate against the minority all the time. I think it depends on the reason. Study past intro to philosophy, then get back to me. And what the hell are you saying discrimination doesn't justify discrimination for? That's a stupid statement. Affirmative action isn't trying to justify the discrimination of the past. Putting stupid comments in only detracts from your arguement overall for future reference.

Long post...been a long day. Hope you all have a good night though.

Have a good night? What bs is that? First you yell at Vinny for spewing "venom", then you call people stupid? Why don't we actually debate instead of name call? Just a thought. I was referring to intro to philosophy to show that it is quite simple to understand how the argument for AA does not work, and your argument keeps the same circle going (just so you know, I have my MA in philo so please don't act hoity toity like you know so much about philo and I just need to study more). In your argument you say that minorities were held back and that gives them the right to have an upper hand to get into schools. When does that end? AA has been going on for over 20 years... Yes, your argument is going to be discrimination is still going on and has been going on for over 200 years, but when do we end AA? Also, what about those defendants out there who get somebody who gets into a Law School or companies that get an engineering student who got into school because of AA and should not have (ie AA did not help someone who deserved to get in but had been held back because of discrimination, but just someone who should not have got in). AA can have a powerful negative impact, as has been shown in Chicago where some female firefighters who could not have passed the normal firefighting school have caused injuries and not been able to fulfill their duties. I hope and pray that kind of activity does not and has not occurred due to AA affecting Law School.

[angelus]

ALL people in ALL times and places have subjugated another at some point.
Realize that often teh slave traders did not "catch" the slaves they brought. In reality it was competing tribes in Africa. Tribe X would kidnap people from tribe Y and sell them to the slave traders.

If teh blacks want reperations or any other special favors they should start with the other blacks who sold their ancestors to the slave traders.

Just a thought.

"Curiously, when bombarded with facts and history, white people seem to absolve themselves of responsibility more than what is realistic. Funny, huh?"


And what the heck would you be talking abotu here? You REALLY think that white people today are to blame for the injustices that took place two hundred years ago, and that they should somehow PAY for this? Give me a break.

Also, I think you're losing perspective of the fact that these injustices are not isolated to "two hundred years ago". The US government praticed and enforced discrimination against people of color a mere 50 years ago.