Affirmative action = bullsh*t

[ImVinny!]

"But don't pretend that you're so faultless while making statements like:

"It doesn't matter what you out in the books, THOSE kids won't read them anyway" in that Ebonics thread.

Or, "It's not my fault that blacks commit more of the crimes and need more lawyers".

Like I said the first time: You have issues. "


I said that the kids won't read the books because instead of teaching them necessary things they are going to teach them something that will hold them back even more. If we are to improve this country we need to start with the younger kids, education is the most valuable tool one can have. That comment is not meant to be racist, as you seem to think everything I say is, maybe if you read it in context with the rest of the discussion you would understand that, but I can see that all you are trying to do is start an argument, and I shall not take your bait. I am through with talking with you, on ALL threads, will not respond to you anymore.


As far as the comment about more black people committing crimes:
"Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black " I am RIGHT in my statement, maybe you should look at fact, then thinking that your fiction makes any sense.
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

[twarga]

As far as the comment about more black people committing crimes:
"Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black " I am RIGHT in my statement, maybe you should look at fact, then thinking that your fiction makes any sense.
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

So then, wouldn't it make sense to keep AA in place to help break this cycle?  With more education comes a more stable environment to raise the next generation.

[howarddavis]

[

It is because of their skin color that many URM's have been discriminate d against. Not be one or two people, but by an institution. A long legacy of discrimination that was endorsed by the government. And, unfortunately, even decades later minorities are still coping with the impact of that kind of discrimination.

But that doesn't matter anyway right?

So it's ok to fix discrimination by discriminating against the majority that discriminated in the first place? Sounds like my freshman year philosophy course that went around in circles to prove that an argument makes no sense. Discrimination does not justify discrimination.

[twarga]

[

It is because of their skin color that many URM's have been discriminate d against. Not be one or two people, but by an institution. A long legacy of discrimination that was endorsed by the government. And, unfortunately, even decades later minorities are still coping with the impact of that kind of discrimination.

But that doesn't matter anyway right?

So it's ok to fix discrimination by discriminating against the majority that discriminated in the first place? Sounds like my freshman year philosophy course that went around in circles to prove that an argument makes no sense. Discrimination does not justify discrimination.

Only time will tell.

[ImVinny!]

AA isn't the thing that would be educated the children, so NO it would not make sense to keep it in, it is only holding them back by giving them a false sense of hope in the end.

[John Galt]

3peat, what the f*ck are you talking about? I have a 174 LSAT and a 3.55 GPA with 1 year of undergrad to go. I am going to have my pick of schools, and likely more than you.

This has got to be the worst thread I've ever seen on affirmative action. DMG, you actually are a pretty naive individual. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. The fact of the matter is that past discrimination is a compelling arguement for affirmative action today because you, and the rest of young whites in this society, are benefitting from the past discrimination. Not only that, but young black kids today are suffering as a result of past racist policies. I believe in individual merit and I believe in personal responsibility, but when this society has basically already determined the outcome of young black kids' lives then you have already placed one sector of society at a disadvantage. That is wrong.

Indeed, it must be recognized that learning and education is a continual process. Parents pass their genes on to their children and over generations this becomes significant. When you have had a government policy that prevented blacks from attending higher education and getting adequate eduation for a number of generations, then it is reasonable to assume that future generations of blacks would be behind the majority. It is naive for us to think, as many of you do, that once we give everyone the opportunity to get higher education, then everything is fine. It is like we are all at the same starting line of a race, but white folks have the latest nikes and black folks are barefoot. That isn't genuine equal opportunity. In fact, I'm willing to bet DMG that had you been black, you wouldn't have had access to the same opportunities(educational or otherwise) and you wouldn't have been able to get a 174. And its not because you couldn't do it...its because society had already set you back so far, that such a dramatic increase would be nearly impossible.

Then there is the whole arguement about affirmative action not benefitting the minorities it was truly meant to benefit. They argue that affirmative action is only benefitting middle class blacks. Well, over the past 30 years the black middle class has risen primarily due to aggressive affirmative action policy. But it really isn't enough to create a black middle class, we have got to be able to sustain it. And so I think middle class blacks should be able to benefit from affirmative action. Further, I think that middle class blacks are exposed to a subtle, but just as psychologically dangerous, form of racism which makes their experiences compelling, difficult, and diverse. Having said that, I think schools need to dramatically increase their affirmative action efforts to recruit low income blacks and latinos, particularly for college.

ImVinny - You don't make any coherent points in any of the posts here. I would suggest doing a little reading on the issue, rather than spewing venom and regurgitating the tired arguements of other posters. I've seen your other posts and you're far too bright to be saying some of the things you've been posting here.

HowardDavis - your philosophy class was obviously intro then. Who were you studying? Kant? Or were you studying Mill? We discriminate against the majority all the time. We discriminate against the minority all the time. I think it depends on the reason. Study past intro to philosophy, then get back to me. And what the hell are you saying discrimination doesn't justify discrimination for? That's a stupid statement. Affirmative action isn't trying to justify the discrimination of the past. Putting stupid comments in only detracts from your arguement overall for future reference.

Long post...been a long day. Hope you all have a good night though.

[twarga]

I took a Sociology class (yes, intro) and we watched a really good documentary about education in the U.S.  Many of the schools in the poor, primarily black areas were deplorable.  These kids are sent the message from age 5 that they are not worthy of a warm, dry classroom with enough books, paper, and pencils.  Where's the incentive to learn?  Where's the desire to spend 8 hours per day there?  To add insult to injury, they would get to see nice schools when they traveled there for sports or other programs, and the inequity would become very personal.  If your school didn't have working plumbing, but had crumbling ceilings and rats, would you want to go there?  Would you want to teach there?  This documentary showed that when the school building was safe, warm, and inviting, with a positive attitude toward learning, drop out rates decreased and test scores increased.

In fact, some students in the DC public school system took matters into their own hands by taking pictures of the deplorable conditions this past spring with their cell phones and sending them to the media.  Parents and students had been complaining for years about the broken lockers, crumbling walls and ceilings, and unsanitary lunch rooms to no avail.  The schools wouldn't allow the media in to take their own pictures, but the students were more than happy to capture the dangerous, unsanitary conditions for them.

[ImVinny!]

Well, then why don't you become a teacher and fix all this, it starts there right?
I am going to do the Teach for America program so that I can maybe, possibly, make some sort of difference in the lives of these kids. Shouldn't there be more people willing to do thiis as well, it's only two years, and the kids can get a good role model to look up to and see that they really CAN be something in the world. So many people complain about htings yest don't even try to do anything about it.
Talk is just that, talk, and talk is cheap at that.

[lsatlover]

I took a Sociology class (yes, intro) and we watched a really good documentary about education in the U.S.  Many of the schools in the poor, primarily black areas were deplorable.  These kids are sent the message from age 5 that they are not worthy of a warm, dry classroom with enough books, paper, and pencils.  Where's the incentive to learn?  Where's the desire to spend 8 hours per day there?  To add insult to injury, they would get to see nice schools when they traveled there for sports or other programs, and the inequity would become very personal.  If your school didn't have working plumbing, but had crumbling ceilings and rats, would you want to go there?  Would you want to teach there?  This documentary showed that when the school building was safe, warm, and inviting, with a positive attitude toward learning, drop out rates decreased and test scores increased.

In fact, some students in the DC public school system took matters into their own hands by taking pictures of the deplorable conditions this past spring with their cell phones and sending them to the media.  Parents and students had been complaining for years about the broken lockers, crumbling walls and ceilings, and unsanitary lunch rooms to no avail.  The schools wouldn't allow the media in to take their own pictures, but the students were more than happy to capture the dangerous, unsanitary conditions for them.

   Whenver a topic of sociology comes up, I retain a great deal of caution. The entire field is a practice of circular reasoning in the guise of pseudo-science.  In hard sciences, one gathers evidence and tries to disprove a hypothesis, or in essense practices a 'must be true' mentality.  Sociology works backwards, by assuming one of 2 major paradigms, functional and conflict and recklessly fits the evidence into the 'could be true' world.
   Obviously if one assumes a conflict paradigm and seeks evidence to support this social-stratification theory, any theory, regardless of evidence to the contrary, can be supported.  No different than a pessimist, optimist and neutralist view of the world.  What I find most disturbing is the acceptance of social conspiracy theories to racial problems.  It simple terms, you can never challenge a conspiracy minded individual because the challenge is considered part of the conspiracy.
    As for conditions of the schools, I submit this is a minor issue.  I use to be a sentimentalist to the same type of stories of your post, but after travelling to 3rd world countries and observing the conditions that people live in and do excel, I quickly grew a tough-love attitude. If one is more concerned about the maudlin color of paint than burying their heads in the books, that is an artifact of mismatched priorities.
    While I don't dispute that changing the majority view is part of the solution, the more significant cahnge has to come within the individuals of the minority groups.  Why do some minority and immigrant groups excel while others continue to languish, while experiencing equivalent discrimination?  The answer is related to how and the extent that individuals within the groups process their social persona.  Currently, African American role-models are not a positive influence.  Hollywood has some influence on this, as do the political leaders.  If one is constantly barraged with allegations of injustice that has and continues to happen to their people, the negative becomes internalized and magnified beyond a level that is realistic.  The effect is very similar to a person who rightly or wrongly believes their parents are to blame for the inadequacies later in life.
    While I remain skeptical of the magnitude, there was an interesting passage in 'blink' talking about how some groups of African Americans who were asked to identify their race on the GRE, prior to taking the exam, performed 50% worse than those African Americans who were not asked to identify.  In essense, their perception of themself as part of the group has a more damaging influence than the clandestine white test-takers trying to keep groups down through standardized testing.

[ImVinny!]

"As for conditions of the schools, I submit this is a minor issue.  I use to be a sentimentalist to the same type of stories of your post, but after travelling to 3rd world countries and observing the conditions that people live in and do excel, I quickly grew a tough-love attitude. If one is more concerned about the maudlin color of paint than burying their heads in the books, that is an artifact of mismatched priorities."


Interesting comment, I think that this makes a lot of sense.