Affirmative action = bullsh*t

[Nemesis]

Have a good night? What bs is that? First you yell at Vinny for spewing "venom", then you call people stupid? Why don't we actually debate instead of name call? Just a thought. I was referring to intro to philosophy to show that it is quite simple to understand how the argument for AA does not work, and your argument keeps the same circle going (just so you know, I have my MA in philo so please don't act hoity toity like you know so much about philo and I just need to study more). In your argument you say that minorities were held back and that gives them the right to have an upper hand to get into schools. When does that end? AA has been going on for over 20 years... Yes, your argument is going to be discrimination is still going on and has been going on for over 200 years, but when do we end AA? Also, what about those defendants out there who get somebody who gets into a Law School or companies that get an engineering student who got into school because of AA and should not have (ie AA did not help someone who deserved to get in but had been held back because of discrimination, but just someone who should not have got in). AA can have a powerful negative impact, as has been shown in Chicago where some female firefighters who could not have passed the normal firefighting school have caused injuries and not been able to fulfill their duties. I hope and pray that kind of activity does not and has not occurred due to AA affecting Law School.

John wasn't calling anyone names; he critisized people for making stupid STATEMENTS. And ImVinny has made some EXTREMELY negative comments; a fact which he has never denied - he's only tried to justify it.

I fail to see how AA gives minority students an upper hand. It is measure meant to remedy the effects of past and/or ongoing discrimination. It is the recognition that certain groups have been negatively affected by this discrimination and is intended to allow said groups to eventually overcome these adverse effects.

As people have stated before, AA is a temporary fix. The real, and more permanent solution lies in a revamping of the education system and ensuring that URMs and other stduents of disadvantaged backgrounds are able to access the same, high-quality education that are at the disposal of many other groups. But this is a long term objective that will take extensive work before it can be realized.

Currently, AA is one of the most effective ways to ensure that immediate steps can be taken in order to provide URMs and other stduents of disadvantaged backgrounds with opportunities that may otherwise be out of their reach. By granting the these opportunities, we ensure that these students are placed in environments that challenge their leadership skills. With such training, these individuals can assume leadership roles and take steps to improve the conditions that still plague so many people in this country. AA equips individuals with potential with the tools they need to realize that long-term goal.

When will it end? When discrimination is finally overcome. Even today, after so much progress has been made;

"When you look at how much the typical woman actually earns over much of her career, the true figure is more like 44% of what the average man makes."
http://businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_24/b3887065.htm

"A federal judge ruled...that a lending affiliate of the Ford Motor Co., the second-biggest U.S. automaker, discriminated against black customers by charging them higher rates on car loans."
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/18/01-119373.htm

[ImVinny!]

No, I think you and the rest of society is responsible for perpetuating the injustices that have existed throughout history in terms of fair lending practices, in terms of economic development in inner cities, in terms of urban planning and housing, in terms of school funding and education policy, and in terms of social hierarchy. Not to mention, you are benefitting from the persistant, and obvious, racist policies of the past even if only marginally. Thus, you are responsible whether you like it are not...just like all blacks are affected by past discrimination whether they like it or not.

I cannot be responsible for something I had NOTHING to do with. I am not a lender, so I don't have any resposibility for what they do, does that make sense to you. It's the same as saying that since the people that bombed us on 9/11 were Arab that ALL Arabs are too blame, and that's just a STUPID idea.

[lsatlover]

As people have stated before, AA is a temporary fix. The real, and more permanent solution lies in a revamping of the education system and ensuring that URMs and other stduents of disadvantaged backgrounds are able to access the same, high-quality education that are at the disposal of many other groups. But this is a long term objective that will take extensive work before it can be realized.

Please elaborate?  the methods you state of revamping the education system is more of an end goal than a solution.  Here is my method.

1) Anyone from a family with an income in excess of $300k can major in liberal arts, education, or philosophy
2) Anyone from a family with an income less than $300k must major in engineering, science, or business discipline.
3) Anyone from a family with an income of less than $20k will learn a trade to become an electrician or plumber, unless they can prove themselves in an aptitude test.

That means anyone from a middle or lower class background can't major in liberal arts, poli sci, sociology, african, asian or european studies.

The secret reason some minority groups prosper and others don't is the parents mandate they MUST get good grades and they WILL become a physician, engineer, or scientist.  business and law are lower on the totem pole.  yes it sounds draconian, but thats what my parents dictated and it seemed to work in my case.

[Nemesis]

No, I think you and the rest of society is responsible for perpetuating the injustices that have existed throughout history in terms of fair lending practices, in terms of economic development in inner cities, in terms of urban planning and housing, in terms of school funding and education policy, and in terms of social hierarchy. Not to mention, you are benefitting from the persistant, and obvious, racist policies of the past even if only marginally. Thus, you are responsible whether you like it are not...just like all blacks are affected by past discrimination whether they like it or not.

I cannot be responsible for something I had NOTHING to do with. I am not a lender, so I don't have any resposibility for what they do, does that make sense to you. It's the same as saying that since the people that bombed us on 9/11 were Arab that ALL Arabs are too blame, and that's just a STUPID idea.

While you may not be the one directly involved in these discriminatory practices, you can still benefit/suffer as a result of their presence. So, even though you choose not to accept responsibility for their actions, those actions can have an impact on you. Similarly, they impact those they discriminate against.

People who realize this support AA becuase they understand that as long as discrimination exits, everyone is affected. Therefore, reactive and proactive measures must be undertaken to put an end to discriminatory practices.

[ImVinny!]

As people have stated before, AA is a temporary fix. The real, and more permanent solution lies in a revamping of the education system and ensuring that URMs and other stduents of disadvantaged backgrounds are able to access the same, high-quality education that are at the disposal of many other groups. But this is a long term objective that will take extensive work before it can be realized.

Please elaborate?  the methods you state of revamping the education system is more of an end goal than a solution.  Here is my method.

1) Anyone from a family with an income in excess of $300k can major in liberal arts, education, or philosophy
2) Anyone from a family with an income less than $300k must major in engineering, science, or business discipline.
3) Anyone from a family with an income of less than $20k will learn a trade to become an electrician or plumber, unless they can prove themselves in an aptitude test.

That means anyone from a middle or lower class background can't major in liberal arts, poli sci, sociology, african, asian or european studies.

The secret reason some minority groups prosper and others don't is the parents mandate they MUST get good grades and they WILL become a physician, engineer, or scientist.  business and law are lower on the totem pole.  yes it sounds draconian, but thats what my parents dictated and it seemed to work in my case.

This is YOUR idea instead of AA? This makes no sense whatesoever.

[dbgirl]

Only rich people can be artists?
That's the most ridiculous crock of sh!t I've ever heard.
My daughters will pursue what they are good at and follow their talents. To force my daughters to go into engineering will forcing square pegs into round holes. I will never insist that my child follow a career path I choose.

[Nemesis]

As people have stated before, AA is a temporary fix. The real, and more permanent solution lies in a revamping of the education system and ensuring that URMs and other stduents of disadvantaged backgrounds are able to access the same, high-quality education that are at the disposal of many other groups. But this is a long term objective that will take extensive work before it can be realized.

Please elaborate?  the methods you state of revamping the education system is more of an end goal than a solution.  Here is my method.

1) Anyone from a family with an income in excess of $300k can major in liberal arts, education, or philosophy
2) Anyone from a family with an income less than $300k must major in engineering, science, or business discipline.
3) Anyone from a family with an income of less than $20k will learn a trade to become an electrician or plumber, unless they can prove themselves in an aptitude test.

That means anyone from a middle or lower class background can't major in liberal arts, poli sci, sociology, african, asian or european studies.

The secret reason some minority groups prosper and others don't is the parents mandate they MUST get good grades and they WILL become a physician, engineer, or scientist.  business and law are lower on the totem pole.  yes it sounds draconian, but thats what my parents dictated and it seemed to work in my case.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Are you suggesting we mandate that certain people follow certain routes/careers?

Some cultures place more emphasis and prestige on certain careers, I agree with that. But I believe it is best to expose a person to all the opportunities at their disposal and allow them to make the decision themselves. In order to make this truly egalitarian, however, we have to ensure that people are given that choice. The American school system, however, remains plagued by huge disparites. A student going to a school that lacks resources will inevitably develop a different perspective - which will inadvertently affect their view on what opportunities are at their disposal.

[risingMC]

Only rich people can be artists?
That's the most ridiculous crock of sh!t I've ever heard.
My daughters will pursue what they are good at and follow their talents. To force my daughters to go into engineering will forcing square pegs into round holes. I will never insist that my child follow a career path I choose.

lsatlover probably put it the wrong way. I'm guessing he means that only the kids of rich parents can comfortably be artists, musicians, etc., because they'd have a relative safety net protecting them from the starvation wages that most artists and muscians are paid. Likewise, the average engineer probably makes most than the average artist, musician and even lawyer ... I agree that forcing your kid to do anything is probably not the best way to go about it, but maybe a gentle push in that direction may not be a bad way of going about it.

And bravo to Annabel Lee.

[Nemesis]

And bravo to Annabel Lee.

 

Appreciate 'cha. 

[twarga]

My husband is getting his masters in elementary ed.  When he graduates and becomes certified, where do you think he'd rather work?  In a school in urban Wilmington that should have been condemned 10 years ago or 20 miles down the road in Hockessen, with modern, beautiful facilities.  If you don't make the workplace attractive and comfortable, you will not attract quality teachers.

Hubby just said to me, "School should be a kid's happy place.  His escape from a bad environment.  It shouldn't add to his problems." 

I just saw a news clip that U. DE was just given a $1.2 million grant to research underage drinking.  I think that money could have been better spent on renovating some of the public schools in Wilmington.