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Author Topic: Affirmative action = bullsh*t  (Read 42860 times)

TrojanChispas

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2005, 06:28:21 PM »
iknew you would say that, and this makes sense, the white people are facing all kinds of b(l)acklash for things that they did NOT perpetrate, as I had said.
oh, the poor innocent white people.  never harmed anything ever.  always stuck to their moral values.  never enslaved, stole land, or committed genocide. 
Arab Majority May Not Stay Forever Silent
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gilda

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2005, 07:58:04 PM »
Actually, I'm not sure AA is the answer.  If all the students who benefit from AA go back to their communities and fight to make a difference for the children living there, then yes, it is worth it.  I personally believe that AA steps in a little late in the process.  We need to even the playing field in kindergarten by creating and maintaining facilities that encourage learning, that attract quality teachers, and promote parental involvement. 


AA is not the answer, but it is a vital step in the process. If we don't take the approriate steps to ensure that more URM's are afforded to the opportunity to gain access to the educational institutions and jobs which can allow them to have a powerful impact on the shaping of this country's policies, how can we truly affect change?


AA is NOT the answer. Admitting someone based on their race in an attempt to level the playing field actually just breeds more hostility toward that race.  I read an article where Clarence Thomas, who was admitted to Yale through AA, says just that.  That is why he is so anti-AA.  I am not a proponent of Clarence Thomas (I'll never forget Anita Hill  >:() but I think he has a point about AA actually being detrimental.

As someone who went to UG in a school that was mostly black, I have seen way too many people who expect something for nothing, who don't take responsibility for their fate being in their hands, who don't go the extra mile to be academically competetive.

Sure, racism exists.  I see it and we can argue the factors that contribute to a low level of minority representation in certain professions til we are blue in the face.  I agree with most of these arguments.  However, nobody benefits from "special treatment."  You want to be successful?  Work at it, bust your a$$, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.  I have seen this done by people of every race, people from every generation, and people of every economic class. 

Nemesis

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2005, 10:59:18 PM »
AA is NOT the answer. Admitting someone based on their race in an attempt to level the playing field actually just breeds more hostility toward that race.  I read an article where Clarence Thomas, who was admitted to Yale through AA, says just that.  That is why he is so anti-AA.  I am not a proponent of Clarence Thomas (I'll never forget Anita Hill  >:() but I think he has a point about AA actually being detrimental.

As someone who went to UG in a school that was mostly black, I have seen way too many people who expect something for nothing, who don't take responsibility for their fate being in their hands, who don't go the extra mile to be academically competetive.

Sure, racism exists.  I see it and we can argue the factors that contribute to a low level of minority representation in certain professions til we are blue in the face.  I agree with most of these arguments.  However, nobody benefits from "special treatment."  You want to be successful?  Work at it, bust your a$$, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.  I have seen this done by people of every race, people from every generation, and people of every economic class. 

The example of Clarence Thomas defeats itself. The man (unpopular as he may be) is the only African American in the Supreme Court, a position of great prestige and power. And AA was, as you claim, a big part in his step to getting that position. Would he have the same opportunity if he had attended another institution? Well consider the fact that NOT ONE of the Supreme Court Justices attended a law school that isn't in the T14. Even thugh now he would be acclaimed as an extremely talented and hard-working individual, would he recieved the same recognition?

It is very likely that if Justice Thomas did not benefit from AA, he would not be in the same position as he is in today. It is regrettable that he can now be so against something that afforded him so much opportunity, and perhaps rob some future leader of the opportunity to succeed.

The fact that AA breeds more hostility towards a race is also regrettable. It's a pity that "racism exists", but doesn't spur hostility. It's a shame that past injustices happened, but theres no hostility there either. AA doesn't breed hostility among everyone. There are many people here from various backgrounds who support it. They may question it, challenge it to be better - but they don't harbor resentment. I think that by saying AA "just breeds more hostility toward that race", says a lot about the people who find themselves feeling that way and absolutely nothing about the practice's merit. Let's not do it because it makes some people mad?

I doubt very much that someone who is not motivated and has spent their life expecting a handout is going to advance far enough to benefit from AA. You take for granted that the students or others who have benfitted from or will benefit from AA are being encouraged to not try as hard, or not to assert themselves. So, was Justice Thomas just a slacker expecting handouts? Or did someone recognize that he had great potential and deserved a chance to realize that potential?
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gilda

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #123 on: July 22, 2005, 11:43:12 PM »
AA is NOT the answer. Admitting someone based on their race in an attempt to level the playing field actually just breeds more hostility toward that race.  I read an article where Clarence Thomas, who was admitted to Yale through AA, says just that.  That is why he is so anti-AA.  I am not a proponent of Clarence Thomas (I'll never forget Anita Hill  >:() but I think he has a point about AA actually being detrimental.

As someone who went to UG in a school that was mostly black, I have seen way too many people who expect something for nothing, who don't take responsibility for their fate being in their hands, who don't go the extra mile to be academically competetive.

Sure, racism exists.  I see it and we can argue the factors that contribute to a low level of minority representation in certain professions til we are blue in the face.  I agree with most of these arguments.  However, nobody benefits from "special treatment."  You want to be successful?  Work at it, bust your a$$, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.  I have seen this done by people of every race, people from every generation, and people of every economic class. 

The example of Clarence Thomas defeats itself. The man (unpopular as he may be) is the only African American in the Supreme Court, a position of great prestige and power. And AA was, as you claim, a big part in his step to getting that position. Would he have the same opportunity if he had attended another institution? Well consider the fact that NOT ONE of the Supreme Court Justices attended a law school that isn't in the T14. Even thugh now he would be acclaimed as an extremely talented and hard-working individual, would he recieved the same recognition?

It is very likely that if Justice Thomas did not benefit from AA, he would not be in the same position as he is in today. It is regrettable that he can now be so against something that afforded him so much opportunity, and perhaps rob some future leader of the opportunity to succeed.

The fact that AA breeds more hostility towards a race is also regrettable. It's a pity that "racism exists", but doesn't spur hostility. It's a shame that past injustices happened, but theres no hostility there either. AA doesn't breed hostility among everyone. There are many people here from various backgrounds who support it. They may question it, challenge it to be better - but they don't harbor resentment. I think that by saying AA "just breeds more hostility toward that race", says a lot about the people who find themselves feeling that way and absolutely nothing about the practice's merit. Let's not do it because it makes some people mad?

I doubt very much that someone who is not motivated and has spent their life expecting a handout is going to advance far enough to benefit from AA. You take for granted that the students or others who have benfitted from or will benefit from AA are being encouraged to not try as hard, or not to assert themselves. So, was Justice Thomas just a slacker expecting handouts? Or did someone recognize that he had great potential and deserved a chance to realize that potential?

I am not sure what you mean about the Clarence Thomas example defeating itself.  It was an example of a man who did benefit from AA and ended up feeling that there was a backlash because of it.  He says himself that this is why he is not a proponent of AA and that blacks should rise or fall on their own merit. 

It is unfortunate, as I said, that there is not adequate minority representation is some fields - including the highest court of the land - but that doesn't make it okay to give someone a boost, or a leg up, onto a playing field where they haven't EARNED a right to be.  I don't care if their purple and we need more purple people - you work hard, you have the scores to gain admittance.  If you worked hard and have the stats to prove it, you don't need special treatment.  Why would anyone want this???  Don't you want to earn your own place, not have someone give you a handout?

And I like how you put my comment about knowing that "racism exists" in condescending little quotes.  Heck yes, reasonable, intelligent people are angry that racism exists and that people behave like bigots.  But I didn't know this thread was about that.  I thought we were talking about AA...

Yes, past injustice happened.  Yes, there is hostility about it.  Knowing this, acknowledging it, not taking away from any single persons individual experience, I say GET OVER IT.  It is a crutch and you will be the better once you learn to walk on your own.

Nemesis

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2005, 12:13:38 AM »
So if a White male with an uncharacteristically low GPA and LSAT score gets into Yale, do we assume he got there because someone gave him a handout? No, most likely he got there because there was something else about him that was compelling enough to get him a spot. Through something other than his scores, he earned a right to be there. And the 4.0; 180 candidate who gets rejected because he/she assumed they would be an auto admit (or for whatever other reason), earned that rejection.

Many URM's face strong obstacles, and this defines who they are. No one has a right to say that, because they don't have the scores, they didn't earn a right to be there. I rather invest in a person who, in spite of difficulties, worked hard and did the best they could than blindly select someone because of their statistics. The admissions process is not ALL about numbers - it's about the adcomm getting to know what kind of person you are and what you have to contribute.
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gilda

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2005, 12:25:35 AM »
So if a White male with an uncharacteristically low GPA and LSAT score gets into Yale, do we assume he got there because someone gave him a handout? No, most likely he got there because there was something else about him that was compelling enough to get him a spot. Through something other than his scores, he earned a right to be there. And the 4.0; 180 candidate who gets rejected because he/she assumed they would be an auto admit (or for whatever other reason), earned that rejection.

Many URM's face strong obstacles, and this defines who they are. No one has a right to say that, because they don't have the scores, they didn't earn a right to be there. I rather invest in a person who, in spite of difficulties, worked hard and did the best they could than blindly select someone because of their statistics. The admissions process is not ALL about numbers - it's about the adcomm getting to know what kind of person you are and what you have to contribute.

This happens with borderline numbers - that is when the soft factors kick in.  If you have VERY low numbers, however, you better have done something SPECTACULAR.  If you have very high numbers and are rejected, usually you have done something in your past or said something assinine in your PS that makes adcomms pitch your app into the trash.

Many people - not just URM's - have faced and overcome strong obstacles.  Strength of character is not exclusive to minorities.  Rankings are determined by NUMBERS.  A white guy with a 156 and a 2.7 getting into Yale?  Not likely unless he wrote a Pulitzer Prize winning novel.  A black guy with those numbers....?  You are deluding yourself if you think his struggles and the obstacles he faced are what won over the Yale adcomm.  You do yourself a disservice to not see things for what they are.

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2005, 12:58:07 AM »
So if a White male with an uncharacteristically low GPA and LSAT score gets into Yale, do we assume he got there because someone gave him a handout? No, most likely he got there because there was something else about him that was compelling enough to get him a spot. Through something other than his scores, he earned a right to be there. And the 4.0; 180 candidate who gets rejected because he/she assumed they would be an auto admit (or for whatever other reason), earned that rejection.

Many URM's face strong obstacles, and this defines who they are. No one has a right to say that, because they don't have the scores, they didn't earn a right to be there. I rather invest in a person who, in spite of difficulties, worked hard and did the best they could than blindly select someone because of their statistics. The admissions process is not ALL about numbers - it's about the adcomm getting to know what kind of person you are and what you have to contribute.

This happens with borderline numbers - that is when the soft factors kick in.  If you have VERY low numbers, however, you better have done something SPECTACULAR.  If you have very high numbers and are rejected, usually you have done something in your past or said something assinine in your PS that makes adcomms pitch your app into the trash.

Many people - not just URM's - have faced and overcome strong obstacles.  Strength of character is not exclusive to minorities.  Rankings are determined by NUMBERS.  A white guy with a 156 and a 2.7 getting into Yale?  Not likely unless he wrote a Pulitzer Prize winning novel.  A black guy with those numbers....?  You are deluding yourself if you think his struggles and the obstacles he faced are what won over the Yale adcomm.  You do yourself a disservice to not see things for what they are.

You don't know what you're talking about.

gilda

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2005, 09:59:06 AM »

Quote

You don't know what you're talking about.
Quote

Enlighten me.

dbgirl

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2005, 11:06:16 AM »
I wish people would stop citing exaggerated low scores when talking about students getting into top schools.
I am not aware of anyone getting into Yale with a 2.7/156.
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gilda

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Re: Affirmative action = bullsh*t
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2005, 01:33:37 PM »
I wish people would stop citing exaggerated low scores when talking about students getting into top schools.
I am not aware of anyone getting into Yale with a 2.7/156.

Me neither.  It was exaggerated to illustrate a point.