Law School Discussion

Should Republicans be drafted first?

_BP_

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Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #160 on: July 01, 2005, 07:05:55 AM »
Like I said in like my 2nd post on this thread.  Dems fight the same fights over and over again.  At this point, it makes no difference what the reasons for going to war are.  We are there now and we have to finish what we started.  As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice.  And don't forget, if it weren't for the French, we would probably still be singing God save the Queen, so sometimes people need help to secure their freedom.  I truly believe that the vast majority of Iraqis want peace and security, but it is the minority that is making all the trouble. 

To YOU it makes no difference.  It makes a huge difference to many people however, especially our enlisted men and women. 

Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #161 on: July 01, 2005, 07:09:59 AM »
What the hell happened to my thread?

First, Iraq has no WMD, no connections to Al Qaeada, and no active nuclear weapons program.  We are not in Iraq to protect against an imminent threat.  There were no terrorists in Iraq untill we go there (I'm not calling our soldiers terrorists)

Second, fighting in Iraq was not necassary then, but is crucial now.  I don't know if the American people have the resolve to fight the war.

My OP, was to point out that when deciding to go/support a war politician should ask themselves would I send my children?  Would I send my neighbors children?  This is because war is a last resort to a clear an imminent threat (which Iraq was not).  So the Repubs that thought it was so necessary to get into this mess should be willing to go, and that's what Project Yellow Elephant is all about.

To any serviceman in this thread:  Thank you for your service to your country.  To say I don't support our armed forces is ridiculous.  I fully support them, and know they come from a variety of backgrounds.  Opposing the war when it started =/= Opposing the troops. I question the institutions and leadership of this country not because I don't love my country, it's because I do love my country and hold it to a higher standard.

elemnopee--

While I disagree with you here (for reasons I and others have already explained and I won't regurgitate here), this is a very nice, well thought out post...since this thread degenerated into a shouting match, it's nice to see someone bring it back to the level of reasoned discussion.

mxpocc

Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #162 on: July 01, 2005, 07:11:16 AM »
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it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.
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Well, at least you're keeping an open mind about it.  I didn't ever notice the guy saying anything about his race.  I just figured he was an American.  He could have a Mexican background for all you and I know.

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and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive
Quote

Speaking from first hand experience, right?  I think it's more likely that you're speaking out of some other part of your anatomy.

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it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Quote

Really?  I'm just a regular ol' civilian myself.  I'm guessing you are too.  Seeing as how neither one of us served, I find it fascinating you're able to weight the value of one greater than the other.

These LSD boards rock.  They always provide me with my "you're not going to believe what some people believe" schtick for the day.



i don't need to be a serviceman to see first hand that military people are capable of being bigots and racists, and therefore be able to call "bull" when this guy tries to play the holier-than-thou act.

don't be scared of me because i have an opinion. you can, too, if you put your mind to it.

you do make a good argument, though--people who haven't served aren't fit to formulate opinions and judge the differences between aspects of civilian life and aspects of military life. it's a bit funny, but that's what our president does--and he has to lead these people

i guess having advisors and staff members with first hand knowledge isn't enough to understand a subject. if that was so true, our president wouldn't be fit to do the majority of his work

Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #163 on: July 01, 2005, 07:32:30 AM »
Quote
it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.
Quote

Well, at least you're keeping an open mind about it.  I didn't ever notice the guy saying anything about his race.  I just figured he was an American.  He could have a Mexican background for all you and I know.

Quote
and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive
Quote

Speaking from first hand experience, right?  I think it's more likely that you're speaking out of some other part of your anatomy.

Quote
it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Quote

Really?  I'm just a regular ol' civilian myself.  I'm guessing you are too.  Seeing as how neither one of us served, I find it fascinating you're able to weight the value of one greater than the other.

These LSD boards rock.  They always provide me with my "you're not going to believe what some people believe" schtick for the day.



i don't need to be a serviceman to see first hand that military people are capable of being bigots and racists, and therefore be able to call "bull" when this guy tries to play the holier-than-thou act.

don't be scared of me because i have an opinion. you can, too, if you put your mind to it.

Look, the MustBe guy could be a total A-hole.  I have no idea.  Neither do you.  But all service people, like your father, ARE somewhat holier-than-thou.  How else could you describe someone who risk their lives to serve their country for very little pay?  Heck, use your own pappa as an example. Ditto for firefighters, cops, and teachers.  We may not like the people personally, but they're doing a job that you and I won't do.

What concerns me are not your opinions.  It's your rush to jump on MustBe withhout giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

Oneof2

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Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #164 on: July 01, 2005, 07:50:07 AM »
What the hell happened to my thread?

First, Iraq has no WMD, no connections to Al Qaeada, and no active nuclear weapons program.  We are not in Iraq to protect against an imminent threat.  There were no terrorists in Iraq untill we go there (I'm not calling our soldiers terrorists)

Second, fighting in Iraq was not necassary then, but is crucial now.  I don't know if the American people have the resolve to fight the war.

My OP, was to point out that when deciding to go/support a war politician should ask themselves would I send my children?  Would I send my neighbors children?  This is because war is a last resort to a clear an imminent threat (which Iraq was not).  So the Repubs that thought it was so necessary to get into this mess should be willing to go, and that's what Project Yellow Elephant is all about.

To any serviceman in this thread:  Thank you for your service to your country.  To say I don't support our armed forces is ridiculous.  I fully support them, and know they come from a variety of backgrounds.  Opposing the war when it started =/= Opposing the troops. I question the institutions and leadership of this country not because I don't love my country, it's because I do love my country and hold it to a higher standard.

Elemnopee, you could be my hero!

Hegel

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Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #165 on: July 01, 2005, 09:06:17 AM »
We are there now and we have to finish what we started.  As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice. 

This is scary.  Your choice for prez gets us in a huge, unsolvable mess, and yet you are unwilling to see it despite the unnecessary death of Americans and the completely false premises for going to war.  Don't we, as free people in a democracy, deserve accurate reasons for allowing our country to start a war?  That is truly naive.

Arabs will always be suspect of America's intentions regardless of how many schools and hospitals we build.  Have you ever heard of the Crusades?  Do you think that thousands of years of vilification will just vanish by dropping bombs on an Arab country?  Will all the Arabs say, "Yeah ... those Americans are just looking out for us.  Aren't they nice!"  Hah.

Reverse the whole thing.  Make the US the poor little Christian nation in a power vacuum and Iraq the super power.  Do you think the we would sit by and let the Iraquis "liberate" our country????  My guess is that you, me, and most of the Americans on this board would turn to tactics similar to those used by the current Iraqui resistance in order to push out the Iraqui forces.  Or would you just join the invading Iraqui forces as a meekish fellow looking to fill the all-mighty POWER VACUUM ... ooohhhh scary?  How can you expect the same from them?  That is truly naive.

By the way, Why MUST we succeed?  Why DON'T we have a choice?  Why can the Iraquis not do IT (whatever "IT" is) on their own?  Isn't that the newly adjusted reason for the war, since the whole weapons of mass destruction thing blew up ... well pardon the pun ... like a weapon of mass destruction in your faces?


elemnopee

Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2005, 09:16:50 AM »
We are there now and we have to finish what we started.  As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice. 

This is scary.  Your choice for prez gets us in a huge, unsolvable mess, and yet you are unwilling to see it despite the unnecessary death of Americans and the completely false premises for going to war.  Don't we, as free people in a democracy, deserve accurate reasons for allowing our country to start a war?  That is truly naive.

Arabs will always be suspect of America's intentions regardless of how many schools and hospitals we build.  Have you ever heard of the Crusades?  Do you think that thousands of years of vilification will just vanish by dropping bombs on an Arab country?  Will all the Arabs say, "Yeah ... those Americans are just looking out for us.  Aren't they nice!"  Hah.

Reverse the whole thing.  Make the US the poor little Christian nation in a power vacuum and Iraq the super power.  Do you think the we would sit by and let the Iraquis "liberate" our country????  My guess is that you, me, and most of the Americans on this board would turn to tactics similar to those used by the current Iraqui resistance in order to push out the Iraqui forces.  Or would you just join the invading Iraqui forces as a meekish fellow looking to fill the all-mighty POWER VACUUM ... ooohhhh scary?  How can you expect the same from them?  That is truly naive.

By the way, Why MUST we succeed?  Why DON'T we have a choice?  Why can the Iraquis not do IT (whatever "IT" is) on their own?  Isn't that the newly adjusted reason for the war, since the whole weapons of mass destruction thing blew up ... well pardon the pun ... like a weapon of mass destruction in your faces?



I like your post, although it's only the last paragraph I disagree with.  We have royally screwed up their country, I don't know if there is a bad-aid big enough to fix what we did, but we should still keep looking.

In addition, some of these posters have completely lost touch with reality, but what do you expect? its a prerequisite for supporting this President. 

The poster you quoted clearly did not realize the monumental contradiction of his comment, because that would require being in touch with reality.

mxpocc

Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2005, 01:36:54 PM »
Quote
it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.
Quote

Well, at least you're keeping an open mind about it.  I didn't ever notice the guy saying anything about his race.  I just figured he was an American.  He could have a Mexican background for all you and I know.

Quote
and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive
Quote

Speaking from first hand experience, right?  I think it's more likely that you're speaking out of some other part of your anatomy.

Quote
it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Quote

Really?  I'm just a regular ol' civilian myself.  I'm guessing you are too.  Seeing as how neither one of us served, I find it fascinating you're able to weight the value of one greater than the other.

These LSD boards rock.  They always provide me with my "you're not going to believe what some people believe" schtick for the day.



i don't need to be a serviceman to see first hand that military people are capable of being bigots and racists, and therefore be able to call "bull" when this guy tries to play the holier-than-thou act.

don't be scared of me because i have an opinion. you can, too, if you put your mind to it.

Look, the MustBe guy could be a total A-hole.  I have no idea.  Neither do you.  But all service people, like your father, ARE somewhat holier-than-thou.  How else could you describe someone who risk their lives to serve their country for very little pay?  Heck, use your own pappa as an example. Ditto for firefighters, cops, and teachers.  We may not like the people personally, but they're doing a job that you and I won't do.

What concerns me are not your opinions.  It's your rush to jump on MustBe withhout giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

i never intended to suggest that he, himself, was a racist or a bigot--it just seemed he wanted to suggest that military people are farther from being racist than the general public, and are at the forefront of morality within society, and that's something i don't agree with.

Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2005, 02:03:13 PM »
In general (and I'm not singling out people here, I should say) I think the liberal attitude toward servicemen and women is interesting...on the one hand, the look down their noses at them (hence the comment about poor people...and while foose probably didn't mean it the way I read it, it is common liberal thinking that most troops are from lower middle class backgrounds) and yet pretend to honor and revere them. You don't exalt someone you believe is beneath you. Liberals can't have it both ways.

You make a classic Right-Wing assumption regarding the poor–that it implies they are “lowly” by choice or defect–which is no way applies here. In short, you use Republican assumptions, apply similar false premises to the opinion of  liberals, and then criticize them for it. I detected no derision in the term “poor” in the post to which you referenced, whereas your assumptions are laden with them.

be10dwn

Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2005, 02:05:12 PM »
BTW he's not "my" president, he is OUR president.  I didn't vote for him much like I assume you didn't either.  I am a proud libertarian but that doesn't matter to you suposedly open minded people.  Anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is a cook nutjob religious fanatic.  ALL I said was we are there now and yes, we DO have to succeed.  If we don't, what do you think this world will be like?  You may be able to say I told you so then, but let's see at what cost.  You are supposed to be the "enlightened" ones, yet liberals are more closed minded than anyone I've ever known.  At least I'm willing to see both sides of the argument and say yes, we shouldn't have gone to war,but we're there now, let's get this thing done and done correctly.