The White Guilt Thread

[swordfish]

This thread has gotten off topic again, it was supposed to be about me.  I'm white, it's all about the white man for cryin' out loud.

say you are sorry! Say it!

I am so so sorry!

[elegantpearl01]

What's the saying:

If you are right, you are alright
If you are brown, you can stick around,
But if you are black, get back....

I mean come on, while there was discrimination towards other groups, I don't recall seeing in history other groups being lynched, having poll taxes imposed on them or getting their heads bashed in for knowing how to read.  I don't think during Jim Crow, other ethnic groups were subjected to "separate but equal."   There's a difference in saying "Irish need not apply" and having your granddaddy lynched for "looking" at a white woma.  I don't think any Irish towns were burned down to the ground like Rosewood, Florida. 

I simply don't buy the argument that the discrimination that blacks have received is the same as that experienced by other ethnic groups. Blacks are not accepted as simply being "Americans"...I mean come on....not even September 11th changed the perception amongst many in the majority that Blacks are inferior. 

[swordfish]

I've been clowning on this thread the entire time, but on a serious note.  Do black people actually want whites to feel guilty?

[swordfish]

I've been clowning on this thread the entire time, but on a serious note.  Do black people actually want whites to feel guilty?

I can't speak for all Black people.  But I'd guess the answer from many of us would be, "No, but we do want you to acknowledge your privilege and realize that 40 years can't undo 400."

I see, but you would have to address that to particular people.  I live in the coal fields of Southern West Virginia, there's not much privilege here.  Looks more like a third world country in some parts.

[swordfish]

I've been clowning on this thread the entire time, but on a serious note.  Do black people actually want whites to feel guilty?

I can't speak for all Black people.  But I'd guess the answer from many of us would be, "No, but we do want you to acknowledge your privilege and realize that 40 years can't undo 400."

I see, but you would have to address that to particular people.  I live in the coal fields of Southern West Virginia, there's not much privilege here.  Looks more like a third world country in some parts.

Agreed.  But you're still White and you can still pass for one of those privileged Whites.  We don't have that luxury.

I know, but when black people rant about whites (privileged).  We (po' folk) sit there and scratch our heads wondering what we did.  To the ignorant poor whites that creates a bit of resentment, then that just makes things worse.

[swordfish]

I've been clowning on this thread the entire time, but on a serious note.  Do black people actually want whites to feel guilty?

I can't speak for all Black people.  But I'd guess the answer from many of us would be, "No, but we do want you to acknowledge your privilege and realize that 40 years can't undo 400."

I see, but you would have to address that to particular people.  I live in the coal fields of Southern West Virginia, there's not much privilege here.  Looks more like a third world country in some parts.

Agreed.  But you're still White and you can still pass for one of those privileged Whites.  We don't have that luxury.

I know, but when black people rant about whites (privileged).  We (po' folk) sit there and scratch our heads wondering what we did.  To the ignorant poor whites that creates a bit of resentment, then that just makes things worse.

The tension between poor Whites and African-Americans is much deeper than that.  It's rooted in economic competition, which is the same thing that irks me about the way some African-Americans treat Chicanos nowadays.

Let the poor fight amongst themselves so the rich can keep on gettin' richer

[Rudy Huckleberry]

I've been clowning on this thread the entire time, but on a serious note.  Do black people actually want whites to feel guilty?

I can't speak for all Black people.  But I'd guess the answer from many of us would be, "No, but we do want you to acknowledge your privilege and realize that 40 years can't undo 400."

I see, but you would have to address that to particular people.  I live in the coal fields of Southern West Virginia, there's not much privilege here.  Looks more like a third world country in some parts.

Agreed.  But you're still White and you can still pass for one of those privileged Whites.  We don't have that luxury.

I know, but when black people rant about whites (privileged).  We (po' folk) sit there and scratch our heads wondering what we did.  To the ignorant poor whites that creates a bit of resentment, then that just makes things worse.

The tension between poor Whites and African-Americans is much deeper than that.  It's rooted in economic competition, which is the same thing that irks me about the way some African-Americans treat Chicanos nowadays.

Let the poor fight amongst themselves so the rich can keep on gettin' richer

heh, I know right.  Sounds like divide and conquer to me!

[swordfish]

Got to hand it to the rich folk they know how to hold us down.  Damn BUSH!!!

[asdf]

What's the saying:

If you are right, you are alright
If you are brown, you can stick around,
But if you are black, get back....

I mean come on, while there was discrimination towards other groups, I don't recall seeing in history other groups being lynched, having poll taxes imposed on them or getting their heads bashed in for knowing how to read.  I don't think during Jim Crow, other ethnic groups were subjected to "separate but equal."   There's a difference in saying "Irish need not apply" and having your granddaddy lynched for "looking" at a white woma.  I don't think any Irish towns were burned down to the ground like Rosewood, Florida. 

I simply don't buy the argument that the discrimination that blacks have received is the same as that experienced by other ethnic groups. Blacks are not accepted as simply being "Americans"...I mean come on....not even September 11th changed the perception amongst many in the majority that Blacks are inferior. 

The treatment of other minorities was not as bad as slavery, but I don't think it's as light as I think you see it.

Lynching: In California people more or less killed Chinese people arbitrarily, such as if they wanted their spot of land during the gold rush or if they didn't want to pay their laundry bill. What was horrible was Chinese people weren't allowed to testify in courts, so these crimes were not prosecutable.

Poll taxes, voting: Well, this didn't happen to Asians becuase they didn't have the right to vote. The Chinese couldn't naturalize until WWII, and the rest not until the 1950's. Their children were allowed to vote though, due to a Supreme Court ruling around 1900. I'm sure if Asians could vote back then, they'd have been treated similarly. Equal protection did not cover people who were ineligible for citizenship.

Segregation: In the south, it wasn't as important to be white as it was to not be black, so other races weren't hurt as much. But in the west, it didn't matter what race you were if you weren't white. Asians had the same employment and housing discrimination as blacks, they went to the same segregated schools, they sat in the same colored sections of movie theaters, and used the same colored restrooms.

Towns being burned down: I don't know if the towns were burned down, but every few decades the white people would go into Asian settlements with rifles and force them to leave. I can look up the details if anyone wants.

Anyway, I wandered onto here as I was looking for information on law schools. I have been wondering, what do blacks generally think about Asians? Do they see them as threats, unfairly receiving economic success before them? It's not a huge comfort, but Asians aren't as rich as you think they are. While they have high average incomes, they tend to live in places with a high cost of living (CA, HI, NY, etc.), and as they have the highest education rates, they must be more educated than their white counterparts to earn the same money, and the people who work the stores may work 15-20 hours a day. Regarding law firms, most have more openly gay partners than Asian ones.

I'm guessing from what I read here that they don't see them as fellow minorities. But the two groups do have more in common than you might think. Did you know that after slavery was abolished the slaveships were rerouted to Asia, and Asians were indentured servants in the west? A few plantations even tried to replace their slaves with Chinese. After the British outlawed slavery they replaced them with Indians, and all around the world in European colonies black slave and Asian coolies worked side by side.

In the US, the only senator to vote against the Chinese Exclusion Act was black. Frederick Douglas even said in the mid 1800's that "the Chinese were the most mistreated group in the state (CA) and that blacks were the only people who did not abuse them."

Unfortunately, relations lately have been bad. In the 80's, two white guys who were unemployed or laid off or something from the auto plants in Detroit killed a Chinese American. I guess they thought he was Japanese, as they were venting their frustations regarding the rise of the Japanese auto industry. Anyway, the black groups only helped the Asian groups because he was Chinese. They said if the guy who was killed was Japanese, he'd have deserved to die.

As Asians started replacing Jews as the owners of businesses in the inner cities, hostilities were high, as the Asians didn't treat blacks well because of cultural problems. The climax was the LA riots, which the media turned into a black versus Asian thing, despite how a lot of the rioters weren't black.

Someone else mentioned the thing about blacks being perceived as more American than other minority groups. I'll elaborate a little. Blacks are not considered foreigners in the US. While they arguably have the most discrimination, no one tells them to go back to China (like they did to Gary Locke, the former Chinese-American governor of WA, or Daniel Inouye, who lost an arm in WWII, both of whom were born in the US and speak perfect English). Blacks aren't asked where they're "from" the way Asians are, implying they can never be true Americans because they look different.

While it won't compensate for everything, blacks have that advantage, and they have the attention of the media. If you go to www.msnbc.com and go to the section about "Race in America," you'll notice MSNBC only considers blacks to be minorities.

[Harrahs]

interesting thread. 

i want to clear up a few issues with regard to blacks in brazil, which were, until recently, relatively misunderstood.  while it can be argued that the slavery experience in brazil was more benign that that of its counterpart in the united states, afro-brazilians have since lagged well behind african americans in terms of progress, rights, and a definitive place in society. 

there was no jim crow era in brazil; after slavery was abolished, blacks, much in the same way as in the united states, continued working on the planations (fazendas) and for their former owners with few to no laws prohibiting their "freedom."  in the years that followed, brazil, which has the largest population of african descendents outside of africa, explored ways to "better" its place in the global society, and was largely influenced by charles darwin's theory of evolution and europe's dominance.  many thought that a "whitening" (branquiamento, or embranqamento) of brazilian society was a solution to its perceived "jungle" status in the world, that soceities with large numbers of blacks were inferior to white societies, i.e., social darwinism.  in short, white immigration was encouraged, and brazilians were informally encouraged to copulate with those of a darker or lighter skin tone, thus one day creating a society of tan-skinned people.  brazil came to be known as a "racial democracy."  afro-brasileiro, or any other variety of the term, is not common usage in brazil.  brazilians are, in general, called brazilians, regardless of their descent and/or skin tone.

unfortunately, brazilian blacks hold a dismal place in society, and are often made to believe that their plight is due to classism (which brazilians generally admit to be a grave problem in their society), and not racism, which brazilians, of all colors, do not like to admit exists.  however, affirmative action does not exist, the numbers of black brazilians in public universities (the best) are insignificant, and blacks are the poorest and least mobile members of society. 

i mentioned this before in the "mulato" thread, but jim crow and subsequent segregation, despite how horrible they were, worked to unify african american society.  it was black and white.  although it is true -- to this day -- that lighter skinned african americans got better treatment than darker african americans, the general segregation of american society led to the civil rights movement of the sixties, and the subsequent progress since.  because brazilian blacks never went through a similar process, they never gained the rights, progress, and definitive place in society that their counterparts in this country have today. 

the point i am trying to make it two-fold: 1) while valuable, we cannot simply compare the slavery experience across countries in determining which overall experience has been worse, or better and 2) the experience of the african diaspora has been difficult for all, regardless of country.

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