Law School Discussion

Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!

Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2005, 02:38:31 PM »
wait for the fee waivers to start inundating your mailbox.. and apply to all the top schools that offer you fee waivers.. i think if you get a HIGH 165 or above you may be able to go to a tier 1 school.. I'd still apply to some second tier schools as back-ups (and they may offer you scholarships as well)...

Still, you really should have an idea as to what geographic area you want to live-in/practice-in.. many law schools, if not most, are "regional"... so it really depends on where you want to settle down and actually live after law school.. if you get into one of the top schools, then it doesnt matter as much where you want to study...

Also, do you want to go to the best school that you get into?  Or, if offered scholarships, would you go to a lesser ranked school? So many variables.. give us a list of possible schools you would wanna consider.. also, if you havent, check out lawschoolnumbers.com

good luck!  ;)
 

Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2005, 03:04:38 PM »
A lot of it will depend on your extracurriculars and work experience as well as your personal statement and LORs.  A friend of mine who graduated the same year as me was also a URM with like a 160 LSAT and a GPA not as high as yours.  However, he was an athlete and was also the president of our school's African American Male Student Group among other things.  He got into Duke and Vanderbilt.  I am only telling you what I know about his numbers and activities because I do not know his other soft factors

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Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2005, 03:06:06 PM »
I'm a little confused by the original post (How can you be a junior and applying? You are going to be a senior this fall, right?), but here goes.

Assuming you get a 160 or above, blanket the entire top 20 and hit a few (4-5) safeties in the 30-50 range. 

I know this is expensive, but you'll be getting lots of waivers if you sign up with the CRS service (this is NOT automatic--make sure you are signed up!).  I got waivers to Columbia, University of Chicago, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, USC, etc with a 161/3.77 as a hispanic; I also got plenty in the lower ranges as well.

So just bite the bullet, put as many of the app fees as possible on credit cards, and then wait for the results to roll in, because you just never know--especially as a minority.  Hey, Adcoms are capricious--nothing is certain, and it is ESPECIALLY so if you're a bright minority, because they're looking for people like us/you! (Sorry to those who don't benefit, but if they're going to offer me a benefit just because of where my parents came from, I'm not going to turn it down!)

So remember: you just never know what's going to happen, and yet waitlists are statistically nothing more than a deferred rejection, so you have to cast your nets wide...

Even if you apply to 20 schools, statistically the odds are that you will get in to only 4 (ie 20% of them), so if you're shooting for the top, don't skimp on the applications...

With the Top 20, HIT EVERYWHERE YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE REMOTELY INTERESTED IN GOING, and then hit the other schools, and then you'll have good opportunities to choose from. 

The schools are rejecting as well as accepting, so there is no need to reject yourself first by simply not applying...

GOOD LUCK!

Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2005, 03:13:52 PM »
"(Sorry to those who don't benefit, but if they're going to offer me a benefit just because of where my parents came from, I'm not going to turn it down!)"

Nothing against you dude, but this is why alot of folks have problems with AA.

Candide!

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Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2005, 03:19:15 PM »
"(Sorry to those who don't benefit, but if they're going to offer me a benefit just because of where my parents came from, I'm not going to turn it down!)"

Nothing against you dude, but this is why alot of folks have problems with AA.

actually i have no problem with an applicant saying "hey, if it is there and they wanna give it to me- cool"

i have a problem with applicants saying "i deserve this and have gone through things nobody else has gone through, so stick it"

just my opinion (and no one on this thread has said that, just to clarify. but i know of people who have said these kinds of things)

The Truth

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Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2005, 03:42:21 PM »
Seriously, from personal experience and knowledge,

Assuming you got above a 160 on your LSAT, apply to any school that you want to. Many will give you a fee waiver. Do not apply any where early that is binding, ie Michigan or Columbia, but apply early to Penn, NYU, Gtown, and others that are not binding and by Christmas, you will know that you got into some places and can go from there. Applying non-binding allows you to negotiate for merit money from the schools.

I personally know black males that had a 3.7+ GPAs, over 160 but less than 165 LSAT, and some other stats and got into most schools that they applied to. I also know another that had a 3.7 and mid to high 160s and went to HLS and HBS JD/MBA and this person said if you have above a 160, you have a shot at HLS and all other schools if the rest of your app is okay.

The book by Richard Montauk "How to Get Into the Top Law Schools" 2005 Edition states that blacks may get a bump of 7 to 10 points on their LSAT in theory (as LSAT is not as much a predictor of URMs to some extent as the majority). Unfair to some, but hey f em'. The truth of the matter is that there just are not many black males going to schools and their is a big competition among schools for strong candidates. I went to the LSAC Law Forum last Summer in D.C with my LSAT and GPA in hand and spoke with schools in the 20-30 range (along with those at the top) and the schools in the 20-30 said that they would be happy to have me, but honestly I was going to get into several top tens and get offered money at many as did the 11-15 schools that I talked to. This happened through and through:

I myself as a black male, that went to an HBCU and that scored in the 160s, got into 9 of 11 schools I applied to and waitlisted at the other two, see below, and got money, but I have all of the above in terms of strong GPA and LSAT plus a Master's degree with a 3.9+ GPA and threee years work experience which I said I could bring to the class (business perspective). NYU awarded me a Law & Business fellowship and Chicago and Duke gave me their medium tier awards and I used these offers to let other schools know what they had to do from a cost of attendance basis.

You are in a great position assuming the rest of your app doesn't have glaring holes in it. When you get in, don't rest on your laurels.

A.

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Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2005, 03:51:45 PM »
Even if you apply to 20 schools, statistically the odds are that you will get in to only 4 (ie 20% of them), so if you're shooting for the top, don't skimp on the applications...

I have never heard of this statistic.  What's your source?  One's chances of getting into certain schools depends on one's numbers.

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With the Top 20, HIT EVERYWHERE YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE REMOTELY INTERESTED IN GOING, and then hit the other schools, and then you'll have good opportunities to choose from.


I disagree with this.  I applied to 12 schools and, in retrospect, think that was too many.  Know where you stand.  I could have applied to 6 and saved myself and the other schools time and effort.

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Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2005, 04:12:17 PM »
Even if you apply to 20 schools, statistically the odds are that you will get in to only 4 (ie 20% of them), so if you're shooting for the top, don't skimp on the applications...

I have never heard of this statistic.  What's your source?  One's chances of getting into certain schools depends on one's numbers.

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With the Top 20, HIT EVERYWHERE YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE REMOTELY INTERESTED IN GOING, and then hit the other schools, and then you'll have good opportunities to choose from.


I disagree with this.  I applied to 12 schools and, in retrospect, think that was too many.  Know where you stand.  I could have applied to 6 and saved myself and the other schools time and effort.

The 20% thing comes from the fact that top 20 schools more or less accept about 20% of their applicants (some more, some notably less, but we're talking approximate average).  Extrapolate it out, and you have a useful guideline meant to demonstrate that "having the numbers" is NO GUARANTEE of admission.  In fact, most people who apply to a place think they have reasonable chances of getting in, and yet it is simply impossible that they all do get in. 

For example, according to the University of Michigan website, they accept about 20% of the people who apply on the whole.  Yet it's IMPOSSIBLE that the entire other 80% of people who applied to UM and are rejected knew or had reason to believe that they would be rejected as they were...

In fact, many (if not most) of the people who are rejected from schools are quite qualified--it's just that schools can't take EVERYBODY who is qualified, and so qualified people are necessarily rejected...

So, at UM, in general, one's odds of admission are only 20%.  Sure, Chiashu may say other stuff depending on your numbers, but that doesn't matter because Chiashu doesn't take soft factors into account, and universities do.  (Haven't you seen the people on LSN with 180 scores that get rejected from places?)  Numbers alone don't guarantee anything.  They can provide a guideline as to your chances, but no guarantees...

So the way I see it, you're lucky if you get into more than 20% of the schools you apply to--unless you applied down (ie. to schools where your numbers are so high by comparison that your odds of admission are greatly increased) but then you're not the average applicant at that school, are you?  Besides, the challenge is in applying up (ie. "I never thought I'd get into Yale, but I did!" as opposed to "It was so totally obvious that Cooley was going to accept me; I don't even know WHY I applied to Northwestern...)

As for applying to fewer schools, yeah, it's less work.  But imagine that things DIDN'T turn out as rosy for you as they did.  I knew a girl in high school with a 4.2 GPA and SAT in the high 1500s who GOT IN NOWHERE and was only WAITLISTED AT EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL SHE APPLIED TO.

Harvard, Yale, UC Berkeley, Smith, Dartmouth, even some "easier" ones like UC Santa Barbara, etc-- 10+ schools--all schools she should have been a "lock" at--but none of them admitted her.

The numbers--even when you have "great" numbers--don't guarantee anything.  All you can do is cast your net wide, and hope for the best.

A.

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Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2005, 04:22:18 PM »
The 20% thing comes from the fact that top 20 schools more or less accept about 20% of their applicants (some more, some notably less, but we're talking approximate average).  Extrapolate it out, and you have a useful guideline meant to demonstrate that "having the numbers" is NO GUARANTEE of admission.  In fact, most people who apply to a place think they have reasonable chances of getting in, and yet it is simply impossible that they all do get in. 

That's pretty bad logic.  For one thing, just because a school accepts only 20% of applicants does not mean that each applicant's chances of admission are the same.  Someone with a 3.9/178 is much more likely to be admitted to, say, Columbia than someone with a 2.9/160.  To lump both into the same category is misleading.  Second, you can't say that because each of 20 schools has an admit rate of 20% that an applicant has a 20% chance of being admitted overall.  That's just an erroneous use of statistics.

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Re: Where should I apply next fall? PLEASE COME IN AND TAKE A LOOK!!!
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2005, 04:28:23 PM »
The 20% thing comes from the fact that top 20 schools more or less accept about 20% of their applicants (some more, some notably less, but we're talking approximate average).  Extrapolate it out, and you have a useful guideline meant to demonstrate that "having the numbers" is NO GUARANTEE of admission.  In fact, most people who apply to a place think they have reasonable chances of getting in, and yet it is simply impossible that they all do get in. 

That's pretty bad logic.  For one thing, just because a school accepts only 20% of applicants does not mean that each applicant's chances of admission are the same.  Someone with a 3.9/178 is much more likely to be admitted to, say, Columbia than someone with a 2.9/160.  To lump both into the same category is misleading.  Second, you can't say that because each of 20 schools has an admit rate of 20% that an applicant has a 20% chance of being admitted overall.  That's just an erroneous use of statistics.

A 20% acceptance rate OVERALL DOES mean that each student has a 20% acceptance rate OVERALL. (ie 1 in 5 applicants will be admitted OVERALL)

That's why they are OVERALL statistics...They are not meant to take the individual into account... Duh.

I encouraged this person to apply to many schools because, let's face it, people with 2.9/160 DO get into places while people with better stats DO get rejected.

The point of this whole thing is: You just don't know, because you don't know how you, as a person, and your soft factors stack up against the other people in the applicant pool. So if they admit 20% of people over all, all you can really safely say is that... they admit 20% of people over all!

(We may THINK we have some pretty cool things going for us, but in the end, we don't make the admissions decisions, and so we don't know anything for sure until the letter comes advising us one way or the other...)