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Author Topic: Guantanamo Detention Facility  (Read 5444 times)

Paikea

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2005, 01:13:49 AM »


First, nobody has convicted these individuals of terrorist acts.  They're only suspected terrorists until they have some sort of due process.  Second, if you're referring to the fact that some terrorists have cut off heads and so forth, you're still ignoring the fact that each individual deserves to be judged on his own actions -- individual rights. 

You seem quite firm in your beliefs, so I wouldn't think that my 2 cents will change much, but-

The Geneva Convention was established to protect uniformed soldiers in a declared war (not just POW's but rules of engagement are established under the GC) Iraqi soldier POW's were treated under the GC, and many have since been released and have returned to duty serving in their country's military - so it's not like the current US govt. ignores the GC.

However the Al Queda combatants are not a uniformed force that is attacking another uniformed force. They are not even a non-uniformed force attacking a uniformed force...rather they are non uniformed and attacking civillians.

To try and establish that any form of War is acceptable is lunacy - but the world has tried to establish some rules to govern war, and Al Queda is not abiding by any of them. Hence, they have no right to claim the protection of laws that they themselves are clearly not adhering to.

And I really do not understand why you would try to impose legal concepts such as "due process" into the situation. In every military engagement, enemy prisoners have been held until hostilities have ceased. As Al Queda is continuing its operation against us, the US is well within its international rights to hold on to those combatants without any sort of due process.


And as to the OP question about the Koran...I'm pretty sure that absolutely no regard is paid to the treatment of the Bible in Islamic countries. In fact in many of them, you are imprisoned or killed for owning one...

Awesome post. Now lets see how many idiots try to argue with you. Good job. I've been preaching this for weeks now.



I'll be glad to take this on.

Despite the tired and endless rhetoric of neo-con republicans who continue to regurgitate the "they do not wear uniforms and are not an organized army so they deserve no Genveva Convention protection, or human rights" etc, etc, do we forget that our own independance was won by men unorganized, compared to the British, and non uniformed?  Do we also forget that during the Civil War, the army of the South predominantly fought in non uniforms? 

Do we forget that the original Geneva Convention was written in for a specific time period where wars were fought only with organized and uniformed soldiers.  And like all things written for a specific time under specific conditions, such as our own Constitution, such documents are not immune to ammendments or ratifications.  To believe that the original intentions of a document written in 1864 are relevant to the warfare tactics of today is simply naive.

With that said, we can easily look to the Third Geneva Convention to find that Article 4 defines a category of detainees called "prisoners of war" (POWs) and lays out specific protections for such prisoners as those in AL Qaida and the Taliban.
Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions
:[
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.


And what about civilian peoples who are suspected?  The Fourth Geneva Convention goes further to outline protection for civilians as well.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/0/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5?OpenDocument

During WWII, do you believe that the US was at all interested in protecting Japanese civilians?  I urge you to go read official military documents of this time, and watch military and governmental propaganda videos of the 1940's.  The US intention was to irradicate an entire race of people.  Hmmm, perhaps the terrorists took note.

In addition, it has been widely reported that the vast majority of the people who were being held in Guantanamo as suspects, who had performed no action against the US, and have since been released, have now been found fighting for the insurgency.  The, again, continued rhetoric that the people being detained are terrorists and once released, go on continuing to be terrorists, is simple not true.  Sure, there are some.  But the reality is that the act of housing people for years without charging them, is, in esssence, turning them into terrorists.

And outside the fact that torturing people is inhumane, especially when such people are protected under the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions, it is commonly agreed upon by military personel that torturing prisoners is the worst way to derive information.  A person being tortured is going to tell their "torturers" what they want to hear in order for them to stop.  This is probably the reason why the US is hiring contractors to do their interogating. 

And you are probably right that no respect is given to the bible in such countries.  And your point is? 

Does that give us open freedom to do the same? 

Or are we better than that as a nation?


 
"Those who want the Government to regulate matters of the mind and spirit are like men who are so afraid of being murdered that they commit suicide to avoid assassination." - Harry S. Truman

"All bad precedents begin with justifiable measures."  - Julius Caesar

pittsburghphil

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2005, 02:38:45 AM »


First, nobody has convicted these individuals of terrorist acts.  They're only suspected terrorists until they have some sort of due process.  Second, if you're referring to the fact that some terrorists have cut off heads and so forth, you're still ignoring the fact that each individual deserves to be judged on his own actions -- individual rights. 

You seem quite firm in your beliefs, so I wouldn't think that my 2 cents will change much, but-

The Geneva Convention was established to protect uniformed soldiers in a declared war (not just POW's but rules of engagement are established under the GC) Iraqi soldier POW's were treated under the GC, and many have since been released and have returned to duty serving in their country's military - so it's not like the current US govt. ignores the GC.

However the Al Queda combatants are not a uniformed force that is attacking another uniformed force. They are not even a non-uniformed force attacking a uniformed force...rather they are non uniformed and attacking civillians.

To try and establish that any form of War is acceptable is lunacy - but the world has tried to establish some rules to govern war, and Al Queda is not abiding by any of them. Hence, they have no right to claim the protection of laws that they themselves are clearly not adhering to.

And I really do not understand why you would try to impose legal concepts such as "due process" into the situation. In every military engagement, enemy prisoners have been held until hostilities have ceased. As Al Queda is continuing its operation against us, the US is well within its international rights to hold on to those combatants without any sort of due process.


And as to the OP question about the Koran...I'm pretty sure that absolutely no regard is paid to the treatment of the Bible in Islamic countries. In fact in many of them, you are imprisoned or killed for owning one...

Awesome post. Now lets see how many idiots try to argue with you. Good job. I've been preaching this for weeks now.



In case nobody has yet (I haven't read through the rest of the thread) I'll be glad to take this on.

Despite the tired and endless rhetoric of neo-con republicans who continue to regurgitate the "they do not wear uniforms and are not an organized army so they deserve no Genveva Convention protection, or human rights" etc, etc, do we forget that our own independance was won by men unorganized, compared to the British, and non uniformed?  Do we also forget that during the Civil War, the army of the South predominantly fought in non uniforms? 

Do we forget that the original Geneva Convention was written in for a specific time period where wars were fought only with organized and uniformed soldiers.  And like all things written for a specific time under specific conditions, such as our own Constitution, such documents are not immune to ammendments or ratifications.  To believe that the original intentions of a document written in 1864 are relevant to the warfare tactics of today is simply naive.

With that said, we can easily look to the Third Geneva Convention to find that Article 4 defines a category of detainees called "prisoners of war" (POWs) and lays out specific protections for such prisoners as those in AL Qaida and the Taliban.
Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions
:[
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.


And what about civilian peoples who are suspected?  The Fourth Geneva Convention goes further to outline protection for civilians as well.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/0/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5?OpenDocument

During WWII, do you believe that the US was at all interested in protecting Japanese civilians?  I urge you to go read official military documents of this time, and watch military and governmental propaganda videos of the 1940's.  The US intention was to irradicate an entire race of people.  Hmmm, perhaps the terrorists took note.

In addition, it has been widely reported that the vast majority of the people who were being held in Guantanamo as suspects, who had performed no action against the US, and have since been released, have now been found fighting for the insurgency.  The, again, continued rhetoric that the people being detained are terrorists and once released, go on continuing to be terrorists, is simple not true.  Sure, there are some.  But the reality is that the act of housing people for years without charging them, is, in esssence, turning them into terrorists.

And outside the fact that torturing people is inhumane, especially when such people are protected under the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions, it is commonly agreed upon by military personel that torturing prisoners is the worst way to derive information.  A person being tortured is going to tell their "torturers" what they want to hear in order for them to stop.  This is probably the reason why the US is hiring contractors to do their interogating. 

And you are probably right that no respect is given to the bible in such countries.  And your point is? 

Does that give us open freedom to do the same? 

Or are we better than that as a nation?


 


you are such a moron, ignorant of all that is outside your little fantasy utopia that it would be easier to wipe my ass with your whole argument, in its entirety, and flush it into beyond than to dissect it piece by piece and send you scurrying back to your george soros sponsored lefty websites in search of further malarky and canard to condemn your own country you worthless, treasonous socialist bastard you...

how about reading the rest of the thread before you open your cocksucker? you should be on you goddamn knees thanking people like devil dawg and dal that you have the freedom to run your big trap and not get it chopped off online by people who would love to thank you for your views on humane treatment.

dont forget to address clinton and rwanda in your reply ya bunch of pathetic hypocrites; no one has so far.

Paikea

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2005, 03:27:35 AM »

you are such a moron, ignorant of all that is outside your little fantasy utopia that it would be easier to wipe my ass with your whole argument, in its entirety, and flush it into beyond than to dissect it piece by piece and send you scurrying back to your george soros sponsored lefty websites in search of further malarky and canard to condemn your own country you worthless, treasonous socialist bastard you...

how about reading the rest of the thread before you open your cocksucker? you should be on you goddamn knees thanking people like devil dawg and dal that you have the freedom to run your big trap and not get it chopped off online by people who would love to thank you for your views on humane treatment.

dont forget to address clinton and rwanda in your reply ya bunch of pathetic hypocrites; no one has so far.



Clearly you have no intellectual, fact based rebuttal, so why don't you drag whats left of your sorry @ss over to the "I just got skull f*cked by a liberal" thread where you and your GI Joe wannabes can sit around eating apple pie while conversing about how Columbus discovered America.

Next.
"Those who want the Government to regulate matters of the mind and spirit are like men who are so afraid of being murdered that they commit suicide to avoid assassination." - Harry S. Truman

"All bad precedents begin with justifiable measures."  - Julius Caesar

Paikea

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2005, 03:46:27 AM »
Comparing terrorist acts to droping the atomic bomb on Japan is just wrong. 

The US dropped the bomb to take out Japan's major industrial districts trying to end a WORLD WAR, not to kill civilians.  If they wanted to do that, they would have dropped it on Toyko, and followed with every other major Japanese city. 




Good lord.  Do some fact checking first before regurgitating untrue statements.

Tokyo was the initial target.  However, weather conditions forced the US to alter their plans so they decided upon Hiroshima instead.   A major reason why Hiroshima was chosen was because it was very populated and the city is virtually flat, thereby increasing the long range effectiveness of the bomb.

The fact is that the Cold War was just beginning, and the US wanted to use its new weapon.  Destroying industrial centers was not a reason.   Nor was the common belief that dropping the atomic bombs saved thousand of american lives by not having to invade Japan.   At this point in the war, Japan was on the verge of surrender and the US administration knew it.  Communication had already taken place between the Emporer and US prez about terms.   The issue at hand though was between conditional and unconditional surrender.

The bottom line is that the US was prepared to eliminate an entire race of people.  Civilian deaths was of no concern.  If you do not think so, just go read the official military documents during this time.  You would be surprised at would you would find.       
"Those who want the Government to regulate matters of the mind and spirit are like men who are so afraid of being murdered that they commit suicide to avoid assassination." - Harry S. Truman

"All bad precedents begin with justifiable measures."  - Julius Caesar

dinobuddy

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2005, 04:26:32 AM »
Do you think they really spend their 5 daily prayer breaks praying or at least some of them jacking off on their complimentary prayer rugs?

wow.  that's just about the rudest thing i've ever read. such a fine example of sophisticated, educated, enlightened american.  makes me proud of my country.  shur does.


in terms of the discussion at hand here, america is in a tough position now.  if the prisoners in gitmo weren't terrorists before, they sure as hell are going to be if/when/if they're ever released. 

And then the next logical step is,  if they've released any people, isn't that admission that they didn't have the goods to really hold them in the first place?  I have to agree with sleepyguyyawn on this one.  He brings up a good point.

So as to their culpability, i'm fascinated by the ease with which many of you make the jump from suspected terrorist to guilty terrorist.

whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?  is that too basic of a concept here?  i guess my litmus test is, holy darn, what if I or someone I loved was mistakenly rounded up? can you imagine, so many years of your life just gone?  no avenue for redemption.  no way of contacting the people you care about.  is the human aspect of this lost on you?

 I might be wrong here, but weren't a good number of these "terrorists" captured because of money based rewards.  "turn your turban-headed friend in for cash?"  Shouldn’t we be concerned about the possibility (it seems proven fact now) that there is/was innocent people being held there? 

If you're not outraged by that proposition, then you aren't american in the true sense of the word.  you have little respect for the values that this country was built on.  If you insist on thinking in black and white, then this should make sense to you.
 

war=suspected terrorist=guilty terrorist=not getting out any time soon. any questions?

those fvckers are lucky to be alive. how's that for 'human aspect' (whatever the hell that is)? no 'human aspect' in the torture rooms of iraq i guess... but wait this IS the liberal agenda: poop on bush. its way too obvious youve led sheltered and callow lives, and the others are outright socialists trying to suck some power from the proverbial cock in the name of love and equality for all bipedals. this is a just cause, a few mistakes are made, such is life, get over it.

'the values this country was built on?' are you on crack? speedballs? if i remember correctly killing people and taking over their land, as well as war, was exactly what this country was built on. get your head out of your fatuous ass.

im not outraged one bit by the proposition, but ive served in the military. so please tell me more about what an 'american' really is. i'm also an immigrant and more 'american' than you will ever be(again whatever the hell 'american' should mean).

since most will still be there when you get out of law school i will be looking for all you wonderful benevolent 'humanists' to be working for the 'civilians' at gitmo pro bono. yeah that'll happen. youll be too busy sucking down your starbucks and bitching about how evil republicans are.

I... I love you.

Julie Fern

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2005, 10:35:08 AM »
you are such a moron, ignorant of all that is outside your little fantasy utopia that it would be easier to wipe my ass with your whole argument, in its entirety, and flush it into beyond than to dissect it piece by piece and send you scurrying back to your george soros sponsored lefty websites in search of further malarky and canard to condemn your own country you worthless, treasonous socialist bastard you...

how about reading the rest of the thread before you open your cocksucker? you should be on you goddamn knees thanking people like devil dawg and dal that you have the freedom to run your big trap and not get it chopped off online by people who would love to thank you for your views on humane treatment.

dont forget to address clinton and rwanda in your reply ya bunch of pathetic hypocrites; no one has so far.

anyone see violence inherent in system?

(and clinton wrong on rwanda.)

Paikea

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2005, 01:07:38 PM »
Just because the ignorant like to talk before actually thinking, here is the entire Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention.  Now after reading it, assuming that you all can read, just quietly scurry out the back door.  Thanks for participating anyway though.




Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

1. Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

2. The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention.
"Those who want the Government to regulate matters of the mind and spirit are like men who are so afraid of being murdered that they commit suicide to avoid assassination." - Harry S. Truman

"All bad precedents begin with justifiable measures."  - Julius Caesar

Paikea

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2005, 01:39:55 PM »

'the values this country was built on?' are you on crack? speedballs? if i remember correctly killing people and taking over their land, as well as war, was exactly what this country was built on. get your head out of your fatuous ass.



Really?  These are the values of our country?


I could have sworn that one of our most prominent "Founding Fathers" once stated-

"We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness."


Clearly the magic words and national order of American history, and the principles upon which our nation was built.  To question them, as history has shown, is to commit some combination of sacrilege and treason.   And placing restrictions on this natural order is illegal and deemed immoral transgressions, in additon to being violations of what our Founding Fathers and, in the religious sense, "god" intended.

"Those who want the Government to regulate matters of the mind and spirit are like men who are so afraid of being murdered that they commit suicide to avoid assassination." - Harry S. Truman

"All bad precedents begin with justifiable measures."  - Julius Caesar

elemnopee

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2005, 01:50:38 PM »

Clearly you have no intellectual, fact based rebuttal, so why don't you drag whats left of your sorry @ss over to the "I just got skull f*cked by a liberal" thread where you and your GI Joe wannabes can sit around eating apple pie while conversing about how Columbus discovered America.

Next.

And I thought I could be a liberal ass sometimes.  That has to be one of the funniest posts I have ever encountered.  I had to make it my signature also.

Shardik

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2005, 06:21:18 PM »


At this point in the war, Japan was on the verge of surrender and the US administration knew it. 

ummm, Japan didn't even surrender after they knew we had the bomb AND we used it on them.  We had to do it again!!  Japan was not even close to surrender and using the bomb did biring a horrible war to a quick end (and yes, it saved tens of thousands of american lives)