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Author Topic: Guantanamo Detention Facility  (Read 5471 times)

DiddyDo

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2005, 01:58:21 PM »
Pittsburghphil, you're response to me is that if I don't like it, I should leave the country? There's free speech for you.

Your attitude is basically that if a person isn't an American, they don't have the right to be treated like a human being. And that is exactly what brings you right down to the level of the terrorists.

You think terrorists do inhumane things to Americans? Are you aware that the CIA is currently, and has been for several years, practicing a policy of what they call, "rendition?" This is where they remove suspected (suspected, mind you) terrorists to foreign countries like Egypt and have them tortured for information. It's happening to hundreds if not thousands of people. It's well documented. And the Bush Administration justifies it with the excuse that Americans aren't the ones literally doing the torture. We, of course, just pay and coerce other countries to do it for us.

Is this okay? Do we have any limits at all on what we'll do to non-Americans to prevent terrorism? Perhaps we should just put a rack and a knuckle-crusher out on the white house lawn and just get on with it.

Because as long as they don't have papers proving they're American, they're not human -- right?

Sleepy Guy -

First - you dropped the debate on the Geneva Convention because you were beaten.  You had no logical response to make.

Second - People like Pittsburg find you so offensive because you are so willing to go out of your way to forgive those that would oppose our country and kill our people, and yet you look for every piece of dirt to fan your hatred of your own country.  You have chosen sides and it's the other side.  Don't think that these people would not hesitate to kill you with every other American if they had their way.  And I know you will respond by saying it's the president's fault they hate us so much.  What people like you will never realize, is that they've hated us for as long as they've been aware of us.  And they will continue to hate us until we are destroyed or converted.  We teach our children to embrace and love others that are different, but their children are taught that we are garbage to be discarded.  Keep loving those that hate you, and hating your own people and country - if law school doesn't work out you can teach political science at Harvard!

SleepyGuyYawn

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2005, 02:32:23 PM »
I have always been proud of our country.  I'm proud because we live in a country that supports the rights of individuals.  And I'm not just some flaming liberal.  Somewhere you're getting this idea that because I'm against the Bush Administration's policies on the war on terror (some of them), I'm totally ideologically liberal. 
So, some positions I hold that aren't exactly liberal:

1.  The right to carry and own firearms.
2.  I'm against race-based affirmative action, although I am for affirmative action based on economic status.
3.  The right to not be forced to join a union when you get a job (right to work)
4.  School vouchers for private secular or religious schools
5.  That taxes should be as low as possible.  Taxes inevitably hurt business and they're inevitably a gov't infringment on property rights.  Taxes only when necessary.
6.  I believe in a balanced budget -- period.  I believe in fiscal responsibility.

So I hope you understand where I'm coming from.  I'm not an ideologue.  And I'm certainly not just gushing the talking points from one of the major political parties. 

1.  I'm not going to argue about the Geneva Convention because I don't really know all the ins and outs of international law.  My guess is that as much as ya'll are postering, you guys don't either.  What I do know is the ideals on which America was founded.  I know what the British did to colonists.  And I know what I believe is moral.

2.  I never once said what the terrorists have done is okay.  It's a tragic, horrible thing that happened on September 11.  I also think that anybody who has been proven to be a terrorist should be punished, perhaps by death (death might be too good for them). 

But this isn't as black and white as you want to make it out.  The fact is that we don't even know if these people are terrorists.  They haven't been given access to due process.  Once they're proven to have been terrorists, I don't really care if they're given a lethal injection or put in prison for the rest of their lives.  But they deserve to have a fair trial.  There very likely are innocent people who just got caught up in a raid of a village where there were suspected terrorists or something similar.

3.  Don't you DARE question my patriotism because I criticize the policies of the Bush Administration.  I come from a family of veterans.  In addition to relatives in Vietnam, my granddad flew 38 missions (when he could have gone home after 25) in a B-17 in WWII before he was shot down.  He was a POW for six months and in those six months his father learned that he was missing and presumed dead.  His father died, my grandma aways said of grief, before he learned my grandpa was alive.  In short, I love this country, and I come from a family of folks who've loved America and fought for it.  It's because I care so much that I'm so bothered when our ideals are eroded.



BoscoBreaux

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2005, 02:33:00 PM »
First, when being engaged by a military force, unless you are a member of the military, you are a member of the (innocent) public. If you bear arms in defense of yourself against the foreign invaders, you are not a soldier, that is clear. Further, you are not a terrorist. You are merely a guy resisting foreign invasion. Are there ideological reasons why this person may fight back? Sure. After all, when Britain invaded in the early 1800s, Americans fought back, for ideological reasons primarily. That didnít make us Terrorists.

Now, lets assume they are terrorists. Who deems them so? The US Government. Who has not let us know their names? The US Government. Who says they were even fighting against our soldiers? The US Government. Who says they arenít the innocent people who were rounded up and sold? The US Government.
Now, when was the last time we believed the US Government? Wasnít Iraq supposed to have WMDs?

BoscoBreaux

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2005, 02:38:50 PM »

But this isn't as black and white as you want to make it out.  The fact is that we don't even know if these people are terrorists.  They haven't been given access to due process.  Once they're proven to have been terrorists, I don't really care if they're given a lethal injection or put in prison for the rest of their lives.  But they deserve to have a fair trial.  There very likely are innocent people who just got caught up in a raid of a village where there were suspected terrorists or something similar.

3.  Don't you DARE question my patriotism because I criticize the policies of the Bush Administration. 

You are right. The US Government says they are terrorists. But, the US Government admits to letting some of the detainees go. So, by their own admission, they make mistakes (or worse--are letting terrorists go.) The US Government also insisted Iraq has WMDs. Boy, were they wrong!

Didn't you know that if you criticize a sitting President you are unpatriotic? After all, when Republicans castigated Clinton (over lying about whether he had an affair), they never suggested they are being unpatriotic. The most patriotic act one can perform is trying to stop their leaders from doing things that are against the values of the country.

Let's keep ideological diatribes off of a board which purports to promote legal reasoning.

SleepyGuyYawn

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2005, 02:43:55 PM »
Well said.

Think about this:

If you were an Iraqi or an Afghani (more likely the latter as more Afghans were rounded up as long-term prisoners), you probably would have been lied to by your government. You also may have been forced to fight (as drafts are a VERY common practice in the third world).  

So you'd probably be some poor uninformed farmer who only has a vague conception of what you're fighting for.  You may have totally been lied to.  You may have had no information about the true intentions of America.  You may have even been involved in Al Quida (or however you spell it) and been fooled into thinking you were fighting for something you weren't.

The point is that there are a lot of reasons you might have been fighting on the side of terrorists.  It doesn't make you a monster (necessarily) or nonhuman.  It might make you terribly ignorant, or you might be a victim of the taliban's draft.  But you should have a chance to explain your actions and a chance to learn what is actually so great about our country.

A.J.

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2005, 02:44:32 PM »
Do you think they really spend their 5 daily prayer breaks praying or at least some of them jacking off on their complimentary prayer rugs?

SleepyGuyYawn

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2005, 02:47:23 PM »
That's really disrespectful to anybody who is Muslim. 

A.J.

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2005, 02:48:31 PM »
awe, I wouldnt want them to suffer any further abuse at our hands so I digress

SleepyGuyYawn

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2005, 02:51:38 PM »
Dude, do you have no respect for all of the Muslim people in the world who just live their lives in peace and hate terrorism just as much as anybody else? 

Pick some other forum in which to spew your hate.

A.J.

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Re: Guantanamo Detention Facility
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2005, 02:53:06 PM »
Nope just the wannabe terrorists at Guantanamo and if I have hate to spew Ill spew it right here if I feel inclined to do so.