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Author Topic: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander  (Read 4660 times)

ImVinny!

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2005, 12:51:31 PM »
So maybe I should join the black student alliance? That would totally help my admission to law school ,right...

niciMichgrl

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2005, 01:57:07 PM »
I am an African female and will be the first to admit that AA makes it much easier for blacks to get in than caucasions.  I will also readily admit that we do not currently have a perfect system - it has flaws, but should not be completely scrapped because it serves so many important functions.

First, it gives each school a chance to build diverse student bodies and faculties.  This is extremely important in helping them convince employers, etc. that they are preparing students for a more diverse global environment.  As an undergrad, I applied to many schools but ended up transferring in order to have a more multicultural experience (I wanted to meet people with many different perspectives).  Schools also realize that many students are looking for this type of experience, so they have much invested in diversity.

Second, I know blacks that have gotten into schools that they obviously were not qualified for.  Some of these people were unsuccessful in law school while others did extremely well.  I think the importance of AA is the opportunity it affords minorities that have faced hardships others have not seen. 

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jwilcox1024

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2005, 02:15:16 PM »
I am an African female and will be the first to admit that AA makes it much easier for blacks to get in than caucasions.  I will also readily admit that we do not currently have a perfect system - it has flaws, but should not be completely scrapped because it serves so many important functions.

First, it gives each school a chance to build diverse student bodies and faculties.  This is extremely important in helping them convince employers, etc. that they are preparing students for a more diverse global environment.  As an undergrad, I applied to many schools but ended up transferring in order to have a more multicultural experience (I wanted to meet people with many different perspectives).  Schools also realize that many students are looking for this type of experience, so they have much invested in diversity.

Diversity is a worthy goal, but couldn't this be better achieved through diversity essays and and personal statements? I think a white male who grew up in a trailer park raised by his older sister or a Cambodian who left their country on a rickety raft would add more diversity to a class than a middle  black male from Long Island.

Second, I know blacks that have gotten into schools that they obviously were not qualified for.  Some of these people were unsuccessful in law school while others did extremely well.  I think the importance of AA is the opportunity it affords minorities that have faced hardships others have not seen. 

This is my first post!

The (original) point of this thread was data seemed to suggest the current incarnation of AA might be lessening opportunities for blacks in the legal profession. Wouldn't it be better for the individual and the community as a whole if the black student attended Brooklyn instead of Fordham, in the top 1/3 rather than the bottom 1/3 of their class, and passed the bar at a similar rate to other peers at their school?

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niciMichgrl

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2005, 02:25:51 PM »
Good points, jwilcox1024.

I think the point of AA, though, is that the Black student you use as an example may have the numbers for Brooklyn, but the potential for Fordham.  The system assumes that certain aspects of our society may have prevented this student from fully reaching his potential.

Now, I do think that we should further investigate the possibility of basing AA on economic need.  I personally feel that the disadvantages I have encountered were more economically-based than racially, but not every black person would agree with that.

Dionysus

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2005, 03:09:11 PM »
So maybe I should join the black student alliance? That would totally help my admission to law school ,right...

It can, assuming 1) the race box is eliminated (which I said in my original post), 2) "racial/ethnic diversity" is an important factor for the law school, 3) they focus too much on these "clues."
sizup

jwilcox1024

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2005, 03:44:29 PM »
Good points, jwilcox1024.

I think the point of AA, though, is that the Black student you use as an example may have the numbers for Brooklyn, but the potential for Fordham.  The system assumes that certain aspects of our society may have prevented this student from fully reaching his potential.

I agree that is the theory behind AA. I was just pointing out that the work by Prof. Sander seems to imply this theory may be incorrect. We may need to retool how we use AA to get better results.  I will be the first to admit I am a much bigger fan of preferences being given on socioeconomic rather than race-based criteria, but if we are going to use race-based criteria I want to make sure we are atleast getting the best possible return on our investment in the system.
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jassulli

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2005, 07:57:21 PM »
LSN is a fallible database and so is your claim that you may have a better chnce at gaining acceptance to a top 20 school if you play the race card. What many people--yourself included--fail to understand is that AA is NOT there to undermine the intellectual capabilities and talents of minorities. It is there to ensure that discriminatory practices against women and people of color are abated.

Wouldn't a race blind admissions system accomplish this more effectively?  If adcoms had no way of knowing the race of an applicant, they wouldn't be able to discriminate.

the explanation above is not (constitutionally) the reason for AA.  per Bakke v. Regents of UC, Grutter v. Bollinger, diversity is the acceptable reason for AA in the admissions process.  the flaw, of course, being that ethnicity =/= diversity necessarily, since diversity (to me) is about experience and culture.  Carlton Banks could check the black/african american box on an application but bring much less to the school in terms of diversity than many other black applicants.

ImVinny!

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2005, 09:41:09 AM »
LSN is a fallible database and so is your claim that you may have a better chnce at gaining acceptance to a top 20 school if you play the race card. What many people--yourself included--fail to understand is that AA is NOT there to undermine the intellectual capabilities and talents of minorities. It is there to ensure that discriminatory practices against women and people of color are abated.

Wouldn't a race blind admissions system accomplish this more effectively?  If adcoms had no way of knowing the race of an applicant, they wouldn't be able to discriminate.

the explanation above is not (constitutionally) the reason for AA. per Bakke v. Regents of UC, Grutter v. Bollinger, diversity is the acceptable reason for AA in the admissions process. the flaw, of course, being that ethnicity =/= diversity necessarily, since diversity (to me) is about experience and culture. Carlton Banks could check the black/african american box on an application but bring much less to the school in terms of diversity than many other black applicants.

Amen!

sarmstrong806

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2005, 01:46:00 AM »


oh just wait til you go through admissions and see people being admitted with significantly lower scores than you because of their race... then we'll talk
Quote

how do you know that they were accepted because of thier race without reading their personal statements/and letters of rec???  You, Sir, are an idot. 

They don't accept people with an 8 point under the median LSAT because of a PS.

And Ebony whatever is definitely in support of AA, just look at her LSN numbers and where she is applying

"165 or bust"

ImVinny!

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Re: Discussion and Response to Criticism by Prof. Sander
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2005, 09:11:43 AM »
Definately, you have managed to articulate what many of us have been trying to say all along.