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Author Topic: barry and stetson's rankings..  (Read 5029 times)

cassise

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2005, 10:56:41 PM »
Stetson has a great reputation here in Florida. Especially here in Tampa. But out of the state it does not. This doesn't really mean that much. Look at it this way, a Stetson degree (if you do well) will get you in the door at a LOT of Tampa, Orlando, etc firms. Once you have worked there for a few years, where you went to school will matter less. You will be able to go many more places on your job experience than you will in the beginning with a Stetson degree. Basically, going to Stetson does not preclude you from working anywhere. It just may make it a little harder or a little longer wait to get a job out of state.


As far as Barry goes, stay away from there. They lost their accreditation once and everyone in school there at the time had to start all over. It is possible it will happen again. Not worth the risk in my opinion. Stetson is MUCH better. Probibally tied for the second most prestigious LS in Florida.

Using your logic about not precluding you, neither does Cooley, or any other school you can think of.  Going to Stetson will severely handicap you when looking for a job out of state, sure you can build up a name for yourself, but 1, the name of your LS will always follow you and carry a stigma, and 2, any grad from anywhere can do this, so folloying this logic barry is as good as stetson (if not better if it is cheaper).

Also beign second best in FL isn't exactly an accomplishment, its not what many would call a fertile ground of law schools.

waitingsucks

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2005, 12:15:45 AM »
Yeah, you'll always be behind the Vandy, Emory, UGA, and Bama grads coming back home to practice. And possibly even UNC and Wake.

Nole

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2005, 09:55:24 AM »
Stetson has a great reputation here in Florida. Especially here in Tampa. But out of the state it does not. This doesn't really mean that much. Look at it this way, a Stetson degree (if you do well) will get you in the door at a LOT of Tampa, Orlando, etc firms. Once you have worked there for a few years, where you went to school will matter less. You will be able to go many more places on your job experience than you will in the beginning with a Stetson degree. Basically, going to Stetson does not preclude you from working anywhere. It just may make it a little harder or a little longer wait to get a job out of state.


As far as Barry goes, stay away from there. They lost their accreditation once and everyone in school there at the time had to start all over. It is possible it will happen again. Not worth the risk in my opinion. Stetson is MUCH better. Probibally tied for the second most prestigious LS in Florida.

Using your logic about not precluding you, neither does Cooley, or any other school you can think of.  Going to Stetson will severely handicap you when looking for a job out of state, sure you can build up a name for yourself, but 1, the name of your LS will always follow you and carry a stigma, and 2, any grad from anywhere can do this, so folloying this logic barry is as good as stetson (if not better if it is cheaper).

Also beign second best in FL isn't exactly an accomplishment, its not what many would call a fertile ground of law schools.

But Stetson is an established school here and if you want to practice in Florida, many big law firms hire from there. Barry is a no name. It has not been around long and has already lost its accreditation once. It is kind of a joke here. A Stetson degree WILL get you a job at least in Florida. A Barry degree, even if you are at the top of your class, will NOT guarantee you a good job. Or even a job at all. And that is if you even get to graduate and take the bar which will not happen if they lose accreditation again while you are in school there. Barry and Stetson are not even CLOSE in in state reputation or job placement.

Yeah, you'll always be behind the Vandy, Emory, UGA, and Bama grads coming back home to practice. And possibly even UNC and Wake.

I can guarantee you that there are not many people who go to UGA or Bama or even Vandy who go "home" to Florida to practice. UGA and Bama mainly pull from their own states and most people who choose to go to these three schools either stay in the south or, in the care of Vandy, end up in DC or even the NE. Plenty of people switch between NE and Florida but not so much between the Deep South anf Florida. I am just drawing from my experiences in the Florida legal community and also the Florida university system.
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davidatfsu

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2005, 11:19:26 AM »
Stetson has a great reputation here in Florida. Especially here in Tampa. But out of the state it does not. This doesn't really mean that much. Look at it this way, a Stetson degree (if you do well) will get you in the door at a LOT of Tampa, Orlando, etc firms. Once you have worked there for a few years, where you went to school will matter less. You will be able to go many more places on your job experience than you will in the beginning with a Stetson degree. Basically, going to Stetson does not preclude you from working anywhere. It just may make it a little harder or a little longer wait to get a job out of state.

As far as Barry goes, stay away from there. They lost their accreditation once and everyone in school there at the time had to start all over. It is possible it will happen again. Not worth the risk in my opinion. Stetson is MUCH better. Probibally tied for the second most prestigious LS in Florida.

I would agree with staying away from Barry. No lawyer I've ever talked to has much respect for it. A much better 4th tier choice is Florida Coastal in Jacksonville.

My only problem with Stetson is the cost. Its tuition is so obnoxious for a school in a solid 3rd place in Florida. No chance that UM ranks higher than UF. FSU may have been tied with Stetson at one point, but I think FSU pulling away to its own 2nd place. They've highered some better faculty and keep raising the stakes for acceptance significantly each year.

waitingsucks

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2005, 11:40:58 AM »
Nolegirl:

You may be right re UGA and Bama, but there are many, many people who go to FLA from Vandy. I know a number of them. And just from attending the Emory admit weekend, there are def people from there planning on going back to FLA. I don't think Vandy/Emory grads will be necessarily competing with barry/stetson grads for the same types of jobs, but my original point stands.

TheFloridaGuy

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2005, 12:54:59 PM »
I pretty much agree with FloridaGuy except that I found that, surprisingly, many lawyers really did not have a good impression of UM at all and said that, especially in the last 5 yrs or so, they prefer Stetson grads. But FloridaGuy is totally right that if you do well at any of these schools, you will get basically the same job. As far as regions go, this is how I would break it down:

North Florida: 1)UF close second=FSU
Central Florida 1)UF 2)FSU/Stetson (more Stetson in Tampa/St Pete of course)
South Florida 1)UF 2)UM

Also, probibaly the two biggest legal markets in the state (for private practice) are Miami and Tampa. For any type of government position, etc. a degree from FSU will help since it is in Tally.

Just some thoughts. I intereviewed at a lot of firms in Tampa and had quite a bit of interaction with lawyers while in Tallahassee. These are just the impressions I have gotten. Basically, if you do well at UF, FSU, Stetson, or UM, you will be fine in the state of Florida.

It all depends on who you talk too.  Miami isn't really a Florida school. It's a S.Florida school (Broward, Palm Beach and Dade County) and then the Northeast and MidWest. I would think most Miami grads who end up in Tally or Tampa were most likely at the bottom of the class as those are not desirable legal markets for Miami grads.  Most Miami grads are from the Northeast, 70% of the class is from out of state yearly, and their top feeder schools other than UF are elite schools like University of Michigan, Duke, University of North Carolina, Columbia, NYU, BU, Penn, Brandeis, Cornell etc..so most of those students want to either return to the Northeast markets, mainly NYC, Philadelphia or Chicago or stay in S.Florida market since we all know S.Florida is a Northeast transplant. On the otherhand Florida and FSU are Florida schools, and the vast majority of their students practice in Florida since they don't have the alumni networks to get them placement in the Northeast like Miami does. 

There is no doubt that if you're looking to work anywhere in Florida, UF is number 1.  UF is the oldest law school in the state, with the largest alumni network.  However, other than that it's regional. For example if you talk to lawyers in Tally their going to say FSU since the vast majority of FSU grads stay in Leon County, panhandle and j-ville legal markets. Tampa is dominated by Stetson grads and if you talk to lawyers in that area they're going to say Stetson is great since everyone always toots their own horns.  I would say Miami probably is even or better if you want to work in S.Florida just because Miami grads dominate big law in Miami and have a huge number of alumni in the tri-county area. According to Martindale here is the breakdown. Miami 5759 alumni, UF 2411 alumni, FSU 605 alumni and Stetson at 470.  It's pretty clear if you want S.Florida big law or to work in the firms that dominate the area going to UM is the clear choice if you can't get cheap tuition at UF. I'm from S.Florida, and I can tell you that the lawyers I speak to tell me that UM has a stellar rep, as does UF, however most either downplay FSU or don't know anything about it.  Everyone I speak to says stay away from Stetson if you can.  I hate to bash Stetson because I personally know a very successful Stetson lawyer making 300k plus a year, but if you simply look at the US News rankings for reputation it shows you that Stetson is clearly number 4 in the state.
Miami in the US News rankings has the best reputation amongst peer schools and amongst judges and lawyers in Florida other than UF.  Miami has a 2.8 and 3.0 and I believe UF is 3.1 and 3.1. FSU is a 2.7 and 2.8 and Stetson is in the low 2.0s, I think around 2.2 and 2.3. 
 

TheFloridaGuy

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2005, 01:32:12 PM »
Yeah, you'll always be behind the Vandy, Emory, UGA, and Bama grads coming back home to practice. And possibly even UNC and Wake.

You gotta be kidding me. LOL No one in Florida cares about UGA, Bama, UNC or Wake.  They have no alumni networks here and people are going to hire from their own law schools before they hire from those schools.  With Emory it depends on were you place in your class.  If you're top 25% I think that there would be plenty of firms willing to give you an interview.  Vandy is a top 14 in rep and I think if you wanted too work in Florid you could work anywhere no problem.

Nole

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2005, 02:34:43 PM »
I pretty much agree with FloridaGuy except that I found that, surprisingly, many lawyers really did not have a good impression of UM at all and said that, especially in the last 5 yrs or so, they prefer Stetson grads. But FloridaGuy is totally right that if you do well at any of these schools, you will get basically the same job. As far as regions go, this is how I would break it down:

North Florida: 1)UF close second=FSU
Central Florida 1)UF 2)FSU/Stetson (more Stetson in Tampa/St Pete of course)
South Florida 1)UF 2)UM

Also, probibaly the two biggest legal markets in the state (for private practice) are Miami and Tampa. For any type of government position, etc. a degree from FSU will help since it is in Tally.

Just some thoughts. I intereviewed at a lot of firms in Tampa and had quite a bit of interaction with lawyers while in Tallahassee. These are just the impressions I have gotten. Basically, if you do well at UF, FSU, Stetson, or UM, you will be fine in the state of Florida.

It all depends on who you talk too.  Miami isn't really a Florida school. It's a S.Florida school (Broward, Palm Beach and Dade County) and then the Northeast and MidWest. I would think most Miami grads who end up in Tally or Tampa were most likely at the bottom of the class as those are not desirable legal markets for Miami grads.  Most Miami grads are from the Northeast, 70% of the class is from out of state yearly, and their top feeder schools other than UF are elite schools like University of Michigan, Duke, University of North Carolina, Columbia, NYU, BU, Penn, Brandeis, Cornell etc..so most of those students want to either return to the Northeast markets, mainly NYC, Philadelphia or Chicago or stay in S.Florida market since we all know S.Florida is a Northeast transplant. On the otherhand Florida and FSU are Florida schools, and the vast majority of their students practice in Florida since they don't have the alumni networks to get them placement in the Northeast like Miami does. 

There is no doubt that if you're looking to work anywhere in Florida, UF is number 1.  UF is the oldest law school in the state, with the largest alumni network.  However, other than that it's regional. For example if you talk to lawyers in Tally their going to say FSU since the vast majority of FSU grads stay in Leon County, panhandle and j-ville legal markets. Tampa is dominated by Stetson grads and if you talk to lawyers in that area they're going to say Stetson is great since everyone always toots their own horns.  I would say Miami probably is even or better if you want to work in S.Florida just because Miami grads dominate big law in Miami and have a huge number of alumni in the tri-county area. According to Martindale here is the breakdown. Miami 5759 alumni, UF 2411 alumni, FSU 605 alumni and Stetson at 470.  It's pretty clear if you want S.Florida big law or to work in the firms that dominate the area going to UM is the clear choice if you can't get cheap tuition at UF. I'm from S.Florida, and I can tell you that the lawyers I speak to tell me that UM has a stellar rep, as does UF, however most either downplay FSU or don't know anything about it.  Everyone I speak to says stay away from Stetson if you can.  I hate to bash Stetson because I personally know a very successful Stetson lawyer making 300k plus a year, but if you simply look at the US News rankings for reputation it shows you that Stetson is clearly number 4 in the state.
Miami in the US News rankings has the best reputation amongst peer schools and amongst judges and lawyers in Florida other than UF.  Miami has a 2.8 and 3.0 and I believe UF is 3.1 and 3.1. FSU is a 2.7 and 2.8 and Stetson is in the low 2.0s, I think around 2.2 and 2.3. 
 


It's crazy what a difference a few miles can make. I have only been exposed to the Central and North Florida legal markets in this state and they almost never even mention UM. I actually had one guy from a biglaw firm here in Tampa ask if they even had a LS. He was from up north though. But Miami is a good, big legal market and having a foothold there is very useful. But their numbers are really low and they are at such an extreme geographically it hurts their recruiting further north. Even in their own state. Personally I would never want to work in Miami but it is a good place for several different legal fields.

My opinion on picking a school goes as follows:
Number one is pick the school where you will be happiest. Happiness with your enviroment and school will help you do well in class. Also, if you go to school in an area you really like and you want to stay, your job market will be very good in that area.
Number two is reputation. Forget rankings. Talk to lawyers in the area you want to practice and ask what they think of the school. If you think you will want to leave the state or the area after school, try to go to the school with the broadest reaching alumni network. The best NATIONAL reputation. Look at their placement stats.
Number three, finally, is cost. Though it should not determine everything, it should be considered. If you live in Oklahoma and want to work in Oklahoma after school and love Oklahoma law school, then go. Even if you have a 180 and got into Yale or Harvard. You will pay in state, come out with very little debt (if any) and have no problem finding a job in your home state. I just do not think the whole "go to the best school you can get into" thing is right for everyone. You have to look at what is best for you. Personally, even if I had the numbers, I would never consider Harvard. I would be miserable there. To each his own.

Sorry about the diatribe. Just some stuff to think about regardless. Don't worry to much about rankings. But don't go to Barry.  ;)
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HeatFan

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2005, 03:31:19 PM »
Wow. I have been reading this post for a day, and i finally had to post something, because I can't believe how misinformed people are in thinking about how great Stetson is. I am from Florida and Stetson is seen as a school that pushes out so-so lawyers and has a bad reputation outside of Tampa and some in Orlando.

I dont mean to generalize, but it seems that most of you who think Stetson is so great are either from Tampa or are from the deep south states. People like this are so close to the forest they can't see the trees. You must think Stetson and Mercer are the NYU and Columbia of the South.  You also seem to think other southern schools such as Bama/Georgia, etc. mean anything getting a job in Florida. They dont unless maybe if you want to practice in Northern Florida.  Otherwise, research it yourself. They dont have any alumni or connections worth noting in any major legal market in Florida. If you want to practice in Florida it makes much more sense going to UF,UM, or FSU over any of those other southern schools except for Vanderbilt or Duke.
The only big legal market in Florida is really in South Florida.  This is a rapidly expanding legal market, and alot of the big time firms are in the process of or are trying to open up offices in this area. They aren't relocating in northern florida.  They are coming to Miami for a reason.

Here is a news flash Stetson grads have by far the worst LSAT/GPAS of any of the other respected Florida schools such as UF,UM,FSU. It is a tier 3 school and its reputation scores are in the low 2's. By far the worst of the 4 schools. UF has the best reputation scores, followed by UM.  Stetson will not get you a job out of Florida unless you have an amazing connection.  Moreover, most likely you will be stuck in Tampa or Orlando. There are only a handful of good firms in this area and unless you are in the top 10-15% at Stetson they won't be hiring you.

Now by talking to lawyers I know from both Florida, and Northeastern states.
This is how they rank.

Outside Florida
1)UM
2)UF/FSU - but stigma as southern schools
3)Stetson - if they have heard of it

Florida
1)UF/UM-depending on the area /UF seen as best through the whole state.
2)FSU
3)the rest

Northern Florida
1)UF
2)FSU
3)No opinions on the rest. Primarily because grads from other schools don't chose to work in these areas except for Florida Coastal

People from Tampa think Stetson is probably amazing, because it is the only place where most Stetson grads find work other than maybe Orlando and they are saying how good they are.  Once you leave Tampa and west Florida, Stetson grads are hard to find in large #'s anywhere.

UF is seen as having the best placement all across the state. UM is the best or tied with UF in South Florida,  FSU is mostly in west and northern Florida. They have a smaller class and only put about 100-110 grads in firms each year.  And Stetson is probably 2nd best in Tampa still behind UF. UM is the most respected school outside of Florida especially in the Northeast, and will give you the best mobility or chance of getting a job outside of Florida than from any of the Florida schools.

In short, open your eyes Stetson is not the best thing since sliced bread and is far behind UF,UM, and FSU in terms of respect and job placement

Also, as agreed don't go to Barry.


Nole

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Re: barry and stetson's rankings..
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2005, 04:12:36 PM »
I don't think you have been reading too carefully. I did not say Stetson is great. I am not of that opinion at all. All we were talking about is job placement. I am indeed more familiar with the job market in Tampa but it is one of the top legal markets in the state. If you want to work in FLorida and you can not get in to UF or FSU then Stetson is not a bad choice. It will get you a good job in a very big, very booming city in the state where you want to live. I do not think what I have said about their job placement is untrue. I never once made a statement about their quality. I do not think their ranking is undeserved and I also made it very clear that the degree does not travel out side of the state.

Just so you know the average LSAT at Stetson in 153. The average at UM is 157. The average GPA at Stetson is 3.46. The average at UM is 3.4. I don't think these numbers are indicative of the schools quality but to that Stetson's stats are "by far the worst" is a gross misrepresentation.

Of course UF is a better school. The point of my previous posts was that the other schools reputations vary by what area of the state you are in.

Lastly, as far as placement outside the state goes, those stats are deceiving. The culture in Miami has more to do with them placing better out of state than the school does. People from the NE would choose UM over UF or FSU because it is in Miami and that is more fitting with the northern culture than Gainesville or Tallahassee. When these people graduate, they return home therefore setting up an alumni network in another state and bringing more grads. On the flip side, people who enjoyed Miami are more likely to want to move up north than people who enjoy places like Gainesville or Tallahassee. My point is that it is not that Miami is any better than UF because they place well out of state, just that their grads are more apt to travel. The OP never mentioned wanting to leave the state so this is really a moot point anyway. Most people practice near where they go to school.
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