Am I a racist?!

[Burning Sands, Esq.]

Burning Sands:

You are right.  You hit the nail on the head, and I know EXACTLY where you are coming from.

I'm glad you could appreciate it.  I just call 'em like I see 'em.

And HEADMACHINE, very good post man.  I'm impressed by your comprehensive summary of everybody's threads.

And just to ease everybody else's minds, I do believe that ANYBODY can be racist for the record.

[nola8688]

Lavia
(glad she didn't speak to whites on a regular basis in undergrad. Thankful that she's doing this now, so she knows not to waste her time in law school with useless conversations with uninformed, malintentioned people).

I didn't even see this until now! It is like you have multiple personalities Lavia. Maybe if you go to Howard you won't have to waste your time speaking to white people since there are only 15 in the whole class! Sheesh un-f*cking-believable. You give your argument a huge blemish when you make statements like that.

And black people can't be racist.    You are too much girl!

Actually, I don't see how it's racist "thinking" or even predjudiced. It's more of a protective mechanism, not speaking to whites on a regular basis in undergrad.
We've since cleared up (or so I thought) that that is neither of our intentions. It's still stressful to speak on behalf of my race. And time consuming. And is it really helping anything? If it is, I'm happy to continue. If not, I would call it a waste of time.

How is it predjudiced, or racist, even, by your definition?


By the way. In undergrad, I could literally smile at every person that walked by me, white or otherwise, and NOT ONE white person would smile or acknowledge me. And I sure don't feel like spending my law school years explaining why I deserve to be there, and not because of my race.

Lavia

Protective mechanism? Well if you are planning on only interacting with people of the black race, then fine, go ahead and paint yourself into a corner. If you want to enter the real world where people of all races interact, then you better get used to talking to white people. Like it or not, I think what you typed was both prejudiced and racist.

I have noticed that your are imputing so much negative sentiment into what "white posters" have been typing. You might have run into some jerks who happen to be white, but this gives you no right to generalize this to the entire white race. Would it be acceptable for my friend, who nearly had his head bashed in, to decide to hate all blacks and refrain from conversing with them? I think not.


Is this solving anything? No. Was it interesting if not provocative? I think yes. I will leave you with a few more books that you might consider reading. We can all benefit from learning about other viewpoints in this very heated topic eh? If you have any sociological books you think I should take a look at, feel free to list them. And Ladyday, if you are still reading this deep into this thread, that was quite an intelligent response to my question! Thankfully, others chose to actually think about it a bit.

This is a great one for anyone interested in AA and liberalism.

Culture and Equality: An Egalitarian Critique of Multiculturalism
by Brian M. Barry


This I am starting right now, but I have heard great things about.

The End of Blackness
by DEBRA DICKERSON

[headmachine]

heh heh. i consider it 3 wasted years of a liberal undergraduate education and grunt work in non-profit orgs =)

i basically concur (or at least respect ur pov) in previous posts and can tell that there is a sense of fustration that arises from the complications that spawn from the controversy of race dynamics.

i wanted to know ur thoughts on if we took this all a step further. say everyone thought as liberal minorities do, is this an attainable outcome or an insurmountable task? most of the response i get from profs is that the landscape is transient and morphing, that there can be no perceivable stable outcome to race dynamics as we can see it today.

basically we are moving towards something that no one can truly describe or adequately support. melting pot, left liberalism, right liberalism, etc. what do u think would be the final status quo, considering a finality to the transitive process of race?

the more i think about the more communist/socialist i feel 

 

Burning Sands:

You are right.  You hit the nail on the head, and I know EXACTLY where you are coming from.

I'm glad you could appreciate it.  I just call 'em like I see 'em.

And HEADMACHINE, very good post man.  I'm impressed by your comprehensive summary of everybody's threads.

And just to ease everybody else's minds, I do believe that ANYBODY can be racist for the record.

[Lavia]

Quoting Nola in italics:

Protective mechanism? Well if you are planning on only interacting with people of the black race, then fine, go ahead and paint yourself into a corner. If you want to enter the real world where people of all races interact, then you better get used to talking to white people. Like it or not, I think what you typed was both prejudiced and racist.

Okay, you said that what I typed was both predjudiced and racist. What definitions are you using? What makes you say that they are predjudiced and racist? It doesn't matter whether or not I like what you say. I'd like to know WHY you think that. Again, though, I never said I wasn't predjudiced. I never said I thought predjudices were bad. I think we all are!

And as far as painting myself into a corner, you might not have noticed that I was discussing undergrad mostly, and I talked about avoiding specific conversations.

I have noticed that your are imputing so much negative sentiment into what "white posters" have been typing. You might have run into some jerks who happen to be white, but this gives you no right to generalize this to the entire white race. Would it be acceptable for my friend, who nearly had his head bashed in, to decide to hate all blacks and refrain from conversing with them? I think not.

I see no reason he shouldn't refrain from conversing with Blacks. He can hate us too. Why not? By the way, I didn't say I hated whites at all. I just don't like wasting my time in a discussion when all that comes out of it is...well...nothing. You aren't trying to inform me or enlighten me, or show me a different point of view. You're just judging what I say. I read what the other site's people were saying, and they were exchanging ideas, explaining where they were coming from. I didn't mean to imply that I thought someone is bad or wrong for having biases and predjudices. If I did, I made a mistake. I think the system of racism is bad, though. Just as I think the system of sexism is bad. I think I and your friend have every right to generalize. Now, if he or I went out and started bashing the opposing race physically, or denying them jobs, etc., then that would be bad. But I really think we all have a right to our opinions and feelings.

And, if you noticed my age, I have definitely entered and been in the "real" world interacting with white people. I went to a major university. I never said I didn't interact with them. I said "on a regular basis." The context I was talking about was similar to this forum. That is, I didn't interact with them as far as discussions of this nature. And I'm glad. I'd have been one angry female dog, and stressed out! A few white people are even my friends. A few aren't. Same for Black people. Some are my friends, and some aren't. I have predjudices against Black people too! And people who eat veal. And people who don't.

Is this solving anything? No. Was it interesting if not provocative? I think yes. I will leave you with a few more books that you might consider reading. We can all benefit from learning about other viewpoints in this very heated topic eh? If you have any sociological books you think I should take a look at, feel free to list them. And Ladyday, if you are still reading this deep into this thread, that was quite an intelligent response to my question! Thankfully, others chose to actually think about it a bit.

Thanks for the book suggestions!

Here are a few questions, and I would really be interested in reading your responses.

1. Which definition of racism are you referring to here? And what in my statement do you think is racist or predjudiced? Do you think it's wrong or bad or whatever to have biases and predjudices as thoughts/feelings, as long as you aren't out attacking people as a result?

Also, I think it's natural and acceptable to generalize. That's how a lot of people get through things more easily. The world is complex, so generalizations and categories make things simpler. Of course I recognize that we're all humans, but I also recognize the cultural differences, and I understand that many of us were taught biases (by the media, friends, and family). I realize that whites in general have a different experience in life than do Blacks or other races. And that women have different experiences than men. And that makes us different, and makes us react differently, and feel differently, and that's okay.

I have no problem with the original poster not dating hispanics. I generally don't date whites as a matter of choice. I haven't dated an asian, but that's just because the choice was never there. Would I date a white guy again? Maybe. Depends on who he is. But I know that in general I wouldn't, because our life experiences are just too different. I know there are exceptions.

2. Wouldn't you call it a waste if you thought my intent was just to be nasty, and you felt I hadn't read one thing about sociology? And would you want to keep doing that to yourself, especially if it just made you angry?

3. Please notice, also, that I'm not asking you to like or not like what I say. I just wanted to discuss. We can disagree, and that's fine too. I would like to know what makes you disagree, and I like telling why I disagree (or agree).

4. Do you really think most people aren't predjudiced or biased against other people?
Lavia

[nola8688]

Quoting Nola in italics:

Protective mechanism? Well if you are planning on only interacting with people of the black race, then fine, go ahead and paint yourself into a corner. If you want to enter the real world where people of all races interact, then you better get used to talking to white people. Like it or not, I think what you typed was both prejudiced and racist.

Okay, you said that what I typed was both predjudiced and racist. What definitions are you using? What makes you say that they are predjudiced and racist? It doesn't matter whether or not I like what you say. I'd like to know WHY you think that. Again, though, I never said I wasn't predjudiced. I never said I thought predjudices were bad. I think we all are!

And as far as painting myself into a corner, you might not have noticed that I was discussing undergrad mostly, and I talked about avoiding specific conversations.

I have noticed that your are imputing so much negative sentiment into what "white posters" have been typing. You might have run into some jerks who happen to be white, but this gives you no right to generalize this to the entire white race. Would it be acceptable for my friend, who nearly had his head bashed in, to decide to hate all blacks and refrain from conversing with them? I think not.

I see no reason he shouldn't refrain from conversing with Blacks. He can hate us too. Why not? By the way, I didn't say I hated whites at all. I just don't like wasting my time in a discussion when all that comes out of it is...well...nothing. You aren't trying to inform me or enlighten me, or show me a different point of view. You're just judging what I say. I read what the other site's people were saying, and they were exchanging ideas, explaining where they were coming from. I didn't mean to imply that I thought someone is bad or wrong for having biases and predjudices. If I did, I made a mistake. I think the system of racism is bad, though. Just as I think the system of sexism is bad. I think I and your friend have every right to generalize. Now, if he or I went out and started bashing the opposing race physically, or denying them jobs, etc., then that would be bad. But I really think we all have a right to our opinions and feelings.

And, if you noticed my age, I have definitely entered and been in the "real" world interacting with white people. I went to a major university. I never said I didn't interact with them. I said "on a regular basis." The context I was talking about was similar to this forum. That is, I didn't interact with them as far as discussions of this nature. And I'm glad. I'd have been one angry female dog, and stressed out! A few white people are even my friends. A few aren't. Same for Black people. Some are my friends, and some aren't. I have predjudices against Black people too! And people who eat veal. And people who don't.

Is this solving anything? No. Was it interesting if not provocative? I think yes. I will leave you with a few more books that you might consider reading. We can all benefit from learning about other viewpoints in this very heated topic eh? If you have any sociological books you think I should take a look at, feel free to list them. And Ladyday, if you are still reading this deep into this thread, that was quite an intelligent response to my question! Thankfully, others chose to actually think about it a bit.

Thanks for the book suggestions!

Here are a few questions, and I would really be interested in reading your responses.

1. Which definition of racism are you referring to here? And what in my statement do you think is racist orpredjudiced? Do you think it's wrong or bad or whatever to have biases and predjudices as thoughts/feelings, as long as you aren't out attacking people as a result?

Also, I think it's natural and acceptable to generalize. That's how a lot of people get through things more easily. The world is complex, so generalizations and categories make things simpler. Of course I recognize that we're all humans, but I also recognize the cultural differences, and I understand that many of us were taught biases (by the media, friends, and family). I realize that whites in general have a different experience in life than do Blacks or other races. And that women have different experiences than men. And that makes us different, and makes us react differently, and feel differently, and that's okay.

I have no problem with the original poster not dating hispanics. I generally don't date whites as a matter of choice. I haven't dated an asian, but that's just because the choice was never there. Would I date a white guy again? Maybe. Depends on who he is. But I know that in general I wouldn't, because our life experiences are just too different. I know there are exceptions.

2. Wouldn't you call it a waste if you thought my intent was just to be nasty, and you felt I hadn't read one thing about sociology? And would you want to keep doing that to yourself, especially if it just made you angry?

3. Please notice, also, that I'm not asking you to like or not like what I say. I just wanted to discuss. We can disagree, and that's fine too. I would like to know what makes you disagree, and I like telling why I disagree (or agree).

4. Do you really think most people aren't predjudiced or biased against other people?
Lavia

1. Merriam Webster

racist::: racial prejudice or discrimination


prejudice::: preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics


Do we have these? Sure. Are they reasonable to have when trying to hold a discussion? No. Remove bias, use facts, etc.

2.

I suppose, but your thoughts were incorrect, remember?


3.

I know we disagree, trust me! Don't you think that by me questioning your unwarranted assumptions, thus leading you to defend them, I am in fact exposing you to a different view (my own)? Hmm, if we can't agree on that then perhaps we should just quit now.

4.

Yes. Is it logical for discussions? No. One must attempt to restrain prejudices while having discussions. Removal of ones bias is the key to impartiality. Sure we all have feelings about certain things. The key is to provide facts to back up ones statements. As I typed that last line, I realized since we aren’t do that, this is just pointless. Just read the books I suggested please and wake yourself from (what I THINK is) your slumber.

[Lavia]

Thank you, oh wise white man.
You have enlightened me.
I have woken up! You have taught me many things. I was ignorant and now I free. You exposed me to a viewpoint I had never heard before, nor had my parents, or my grandparents, or greatgrandparents. I will tell my parents this new viewpoint I was exposed to today. They will be in awe too, because this is new to them as well. We will forever be grateful to you for opening our eyes. I have been wrong to try to oppose you. You made me defend myself, and I did a poor job at it, and you put me in my place, and you taught me the right way. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hallelujah! I have been corrected. I have been shamed. I have been humbled. You the man. I will never go up against such intelligence and wisdom and righteousness again. Yada yada yada, bull, bull, bull. You the man. I went and bought those books today, and I am already starting to read them.

I am AWAKE from the slumber. You are my hero. My savior.

Okay. I'm bored now. Anybody want to have an actual intelligent discussion? I've learned my lesson. From this day forward I will NO LONGER respond to people who are trying to bait me. For that, I truly am grateful Nola. You can now slither back to your hole and wait for the next victim. I'll warn them, though.

Lavia

[Aonghus]

Sands-

We will have to agree to disagree on point number one dude.  Granted we may be in different states, but I haven't seen any workplace discrimination in my life.  I have worked for blacks, mexicans, asians, and whites.  Honestly, I think that in the world America has too many problems for us to be fighting each other.  I admit that there are ignorant hateful people in every race, but I do not concede that hate and ignorance is a uniquely caucasian problem.

I dont intend to wipe history under the rug.  The idea from history is to read it, learn what you can from it and move on.  Constantly revisiting history is counterproductive... As I remember from an old Japanese quote... 'after you have read the books, burn them'.

I think we can both agree that there is much work to be done in creating a color blind society.  I think we would disagree on the best way to achieve it... The keys to understanding where I am coming from may be found in headmachines posts.  I genuinely feel that the way out of this mess is not to 'even the score', or to try to exact payment for the sins of fathers from their sons (or in my case people who just happen to be the same color).  What this causes is more bitterness, anger and resentment, and it perpetuates the cycle.  We need to create cohesiveness in this society between races, not more hate.  This is why I feel that the trend toward 'ethnic' studies of various stripes are really a waste of time.  The idea of race IS a social construct.  We could just as easily create a unitary American culture as devolve into a bunch of subcultures with different languages, world views and unique social constructs.  I think the lesson that Europe can teach us is that looking at the world as 1 group against another eventually leads to 'chaos'.

I think another point where you and I differ is that you are reaching higher than I as far as where you are employed.  I am a sysadmin, and as a result, there is MUCH room for diversity, it doesnt matter how I look when I go to work, I am not in the business of impressing people with flash and style, but with what I can DO.  I wear shorts almost every day.  BigLaw would bounce me because *I* dont fit in their mold either.  You say that you are the only one black guy there, and I believe you, but I would go so far as to say that it is very likely that there arent to many whiskey tango college dropouts who look like thugs there either (referring to myself).  They wouldnt even look twice at me, because even though I am white, I am not the same as them.  Because of who I am and how I was raised, I have trouble controlling my temper at times, tend to slip into old patterns when under stress and it is clear within 5 minutes of meeting me that I didnt go to the 'right schools' or am from the 'right background'. 

Where I am going with this is that in this case, while I am sure that some people judge you by the color of your skin, they are also going to judge you by your 'difference' from what they see as the norm.  I have come to realize that in BigLaw, uniformity is prized... but I bet Urkel (sic?) would fit right in.  A guy I used to work with grew up in the hood back home, black as coal, but he was SOOO unstereotypical it was amazing, this guy walked, talked and acted like Alex Keaton...  His mom made him go to church every day growing up, and now he is the CIO of a major grocery store chain in St Louis, went much farther than I did... but then again, his behavior patterns marked him a 'success' in the eyes of the dweebs in the suits, the same kinda guys who run BigLaw... and I stayed where I was happy and did not have to conform.

I guarantee when it comes time for OIC I have a lot to polish, I will have as many challenges as you do... and I wont have the advantageof being a quota check mark.

yes, all the presidents have been white... Hey, it took 180 years to get a Celt in office.  It wont be that much longer before an African gets there.  Powell could have run and won this year, but chose not to.  Honestly, I dont think I would vote for him after studying the NSC intently for the last year and a half or so, he plays his cards too close to the deck, pretends to be a team player and tries to find back alleys to undermine his bosses if he doesnt get his way the first time.  Plus he plays it safe far to often for me.. but that being said, he has enormous appeal... amazingly to everyone except most African-Americans.. who view him as a sellout???

I agree that classes can determine the future of any group of people, where I disagree is I think America is one of the few places in the world that if someone works hard enough, he can 'change his stars' to quote a recent cheesey movie.  I dont think its about race so much anymore (though obviously for some it is) as it is about bringing people out of ignorance.  I believe that with the exception of real estate, wealth is CREATED, value is added and it can enrich everyone.  There will always be relative richer or poorer people, but we CAN enrich everyone.  It doesnt have to be white v black in order for me to be successful, nor for you either.

Aongus, you think we are on the same playing field?  In this country we are not.  Regardless of you perspective, you must see this as fact.  I wish you were right though.  You mistake my mentality of being one that won't let go of the past.  By no means.  However you can not sweap history under the rug because its ugly.  You have to deal with it and move on.  The fundamental difference I can see between the two of us is that I recognize the effects that history plays out today insofar as racial issues in America because I am forced to live it, while you do not.  Its not your fault and I dont' want you to feel like people are in here pointing the finger at you.  You didn't do *&^% (i hope) to add to it.  But you have to understand that it exists.

Come to my firm.  Over 100 employees.  All of them White EXCEPT me.  I am the only african american there, and when I leave to go to law school this fall they won't have any.  Yet everybody there seems to think that its a very diverse work place....I wonder why?  Are we to beleive that Burning Sands was the only qualified Black person to apply for a job here since the firm opened?  I'm good, but I'm not THAT damn good. We are not on the same playing field.

There's another very large firm nearby mine which is very prestigious.  It has around 15 VP's and over 40 department heads. In its 100 year history NONE of the VP's have been black, hispanic or asian, as have none of the department heads.  There is one department head who is a white female. Again, we are not on the same playing field.

I invite you to go look at the NALP directory and pick any major city and look at the numbers of lawyers in any law firm.  I would then ask you to notice how many people of color you see in those firms who are Partners?

http://nalpdirectory.com/search.asp

A typical large sized firm will have 250 lawyers, 200 of those lawyers will be associates, 50 will be partners.  In most cases, there are only 1 or 2 black, hispanic, or asian partners IF ANY AT ALL.

Then we could even go on to the ultimate measure of racial progression in the country by looking at the leadership of the country.  For the past 200 years, why have all the presidents of the United States been white men?  I'm curious to hear your explanation for that.

It's all about racism and social status, really. We have a class system that dictates the lower class is the working class. And it perpetuates itself because minorities' previous generations come from a lower class.

Don't get me wrong, I am not shocked or offended by your "perspective".  If I were you I would think everything is cool too.  If the majority of this country looked like me I wouldn't see any problem either and I might even be offended if one of you white people tried to take "MY" job.  Who knows?


Its like Chris Rock said in his last stand up in DC, this country is just like being in a class room.  In a class room you have 30 students right...3 or 4 of them are geniuses, 3 or 4 of them are f-ing retards, and the rest of the entire class is in the middle. Just average ass people.  And that's the united states...just a bunch of average ass people in the middle.  The only DIFFERENCE is if you're black and in the middle you can't even be the manager at Burger King, but if you're white and in the middle you can be the President of the United States. God bless america!!

[Aonghus]

Hey Labia, heres a suggestion, not as a white man to a black woman (god forbid), but as a person to another person.

I hear they are testing new treatments for 'terminal screeching harpy syndrome"

I cant find any other reason you devolve into a compleat and utter Biznatch every time someone disagrees with you than the fact that you are terminally pissed off at the world, men in general, and white men specifically.

Every time someone gives you what you ask for (an intelligent discussion) you end up mocking and insulting them, sure you start out trying to argue intelligently, but when you cant justify something with logic you resort to attacks.  We might as well fight fire with fire then.

guess if it works for you it should for us.

Hey, where have I heard that before... righting a wrong with a wrong?  hmmm I forget.

[nola8688]

Thank you, oh wise white man.
You have enlightened me.
I have woken up! You have taught me many things. I was ignorant and now I free. You exposed me to a viewpoint I had never heard before, nor had my parents, or my grandparents, or greatgrandparents. I will tell my parents this new viewpoint I was exposed to today. They will be in awe too, because this is new to them as well. We will forever be grateful to you for opening our eyes. I have been wrong to try to oppose you. You made me defend myself, and I did a poor job at it, and you put me in my place, and you taught me the right way. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hallelujah! I have been corrected. I have been shamed. I have been humbled. You the man. I will never go up against such intelligence and wisdom and righteousness again. Yada yada yada, bull, bull, bull. You the man. I went and bought those books today, and I am already starting to read them.

I am AWAKE from the slumber. You are my hero. My savior.

Okay. I'm bored now. Anybody want to have an actual intelligent discussion? I've learned my lesson. From this day forward I will NO LONGER respond to people who are trying to bait me. For that, I truly am grateful Nola. You can now slither back to your hole and wait for the next victim. I'll warn them, though.

Lavia

I am glad I could be of service! 

If you have any other questions you would like me to answer, feel free to ask.

[nola8688]

Hey Labia, heres a suggestion, not as a white man to a black woman (god forbid), but as a person to another person.

I hear they are testing new treatments for 'terminal screeching harpy syndrome"

I cant find any other reason you devolve into a compleat and utter Biznatch every time someone disagrees with you than the fact that you are terminally pissed off at the world, men in general, and white men specifically.

Every time someone gives you what you ask for (an intelligent discussion) you end up mocking and insulting them, sure you start out trying to argue intelligently, but when you cant justify something with logic you resort to attacks.  We might as well fight fire with fire then.

guess if it works for you it should for us.

Hey, where have I heard that before... righting a wrong with a wrong?  hmmm I forget.

I know it is tough, but try not to sink to her level. On the bright side this whole thing has been quite entertaining. And to think, she has man trouble?