Law School Discussion

Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?

Shane Tackett

Re:Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2003, 11:23:37 PM »
Jenifer,

You can't be serious.  If anyone is illinformed, and simply unworthy of being an attorney it is you.  Your patent disregard for fact is uncanny.  A simple perusal of the web, or a walk around any of your coveted Ivy League campuses would provide a wealth of evidence to the conclusion that thousands have improved significantly on their LSAT.

Moreover, this apparent fact lends to the conclusion that if potential applicants can improve vis-a-vis prep courses, it seems as though the LSAT test three things, method, discipline, and money (e.g. the ability to purchase such a course).

As I side note the legal proffession is also full of "snoby" morons you make hasty generalizations based on biased ignorance.  As to your personal ability as lawyer (assuming you are) I truly hope proffesional ability is not as incompetent as your reasoning abilities.

Yours Truly,

Shane

JB

Re:Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2003, 04:05:02 PM »
Dear Jennifer:

You make an unwarranted assumption in your argument, and it is disconcerting to see that your conclusions from this flawed premise are used to tear down a prospective law student; shame on you. Because you pervade practical sense, I figured I would explain this to you as if you were a two year old child, to wit:

Premise: " ... more prestigious firms aren't going to look at the statistics of the school to which you went; they are going to look for an Ivy name."  
 

Premise #1 is incorrect for two primary reasons:

1) it assumes that Ivy's don't have to take the initiative to indicate their intention to work for a prestigious law firm. Why do I say this? I have known Ivy League law students who 1) were lazy and did not get a posh job 2) were never contacted by presitgious law firm because they attended an Ivy law school. Bottom line: whether you go to Harvard or Thomas M. Cooley, you will never get hired if you dont take the iniative to start the process. Your post to nylaw... is deplorable based on the perversion of practical sense. (Note: i didnt write "common sense" b/c Jennifer indicates that common sense is not common)

 

newb

Re:Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2003, 05:03:09 PM »
NYLawStudent: I commend you for your determination, and I understand that you will try no matter what life places before you. I do wish you the best of luck where ever you may choose to go and whatever you choose to do. Perhaps I failed to include a bit of wishful-hoping in my last post, and I apologize for such. Here's a what a professor of mine from Case Western Reserve University said when I asked her if there was really room for another lawyer, "There is always room for a good lawyer." Remember that, if that's the only thing you take from what I have to say.

Dradic: I was tough for a reason (besides the fact that it simply comes naturally). Law school is going to be tough. The legal field, in general, is tough. NYLawStudent had better start getting used to it.  The LSAT cannot definitely determine one's success in law school, but it does a pretty good job of doing so. This quote was taken from LSAC's website, "The test is designed to measure skills that are considered essential for success in law school." (emphasis is mine)

Aitch: I never said that those who go to third tier schools would end up as ambulance-chasers, I said that those lacking the necessary skills become useless members of the legal field. I certainly hope that she gets into the school of her choice, she wins several history-making cases, and proves me wrong. Also, you need to consider that Intellectual Property lawyers are in HIGH demand and that their salaries tend to be much higher than the rest.

Ivy_Hopeful: See quote from LSAC above.

GVP: I am certainly not saying that Ivy League means guaranteed success. But if you plan to work at a large, prestigious law firm in New York, you had better have Ivy on your resume. Don't believe me? Check out the profiles of some of the most prestigious law firms from the web. You will see very few partners/attorneys from below a top tier school unless they have something extraordinary on their resume or they have some (unspoken) connection to the firm. Also, big firms spend a lot of time recruiting from the top schools. Clients don't want a lawyer from No-Name University (remember, in the courts it's a battle of who has the better lawyer ;) ). Ivy League schools are Ivy League schools for a reason (besides the fact that they are in the same sports league…yes, that’s where the name originally came from).

They do not suffer as badly from grade inflation (key-phrase: as badly, there is a bit of grade inflation even there) and have proven repeatedly that they are on top for a reason. You have a better chance at employment (not to say that you can’t completely blow your chances as well) if you have a prestigious name on your bill. Take a look at the statistics for employment at graduation for 2002 graduates (provided by the school): Harvard 98.9%, Yale 98.5%, New York University 98.1%, Stanford 98.9%, Columbia 98.9%. Want to know the expected median starting salary? Harvard $91,301, Yale $ 94,050, New York University $100,000; Stanford $94,200; Columbia $96,000. Of course, with these salaries, you need to remember that the price of living in some areas is higher than others. In Cleveland, making $100,000 is equivalent to making $800,000 in New York City. It’s even worse in the Silicon Valley where people making $70,000 are showing up in homeless shelters because it’s too expensive to live there.

Alright, I’m done.


Jennifer,

Are you in law school? If so, which one?  
I noticed you mentioned something about Case-Western, last I checked that is not in the Ivy league.

Jennifer C

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Re:Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2003, 08:33:13 AM »
Shane: Of course you can improve your test scores, but simply because you have learned how to take the test better does not, by any means, indicate that certain (if any) skills have been improved. It's like playing an instrument by ear, after large amounts of practice, you will eventually do well. Keyword: eventually. I'm sure that if I took the LSAT enough times, I could easily score a 180.

JB: Apparently, you didn’t read the entirety of my post. If you care to scroll up again, you will see this, “You have a better chance at employment (not to say that you can’t completely blow your chances as well) if you have a prestigious name on your bill.” I recognized the fact that it is quite easy to not get exactly what you want. Also, the phrase ‘better chance’ is a good indicator that I know you’re not going to be handed a job. However, when Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz (rated the nation’s most prestigious law firm) is recruiting, they are looking for the best of the best and the brightest of the brightest. Take a look at the profiles of the partners and where they recieved their JD http://www.wlrk.com/OurAttorneys_Search.cfm?View=List&By=Position. There is a strange pattern you will find. However, if you don’t want to work at the most prestigious firm, that is fine, but if you do, you need to remember that a large portion how well you do in the legal field is appearance and prestige. Of course, everyone judges success differently.

Newb: a) This board is for pre-law students. I'd only assume that the vast majority of people here haven't entered law school yet. b) Case Western is not Ivy League, it is too far away to participate in that sports league. It is #58 according to the US News rankings… very good considering just how many law schools are in the US.

Jennifer C

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Re:Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2003, 11:01:54 AM »
I found this a bit ago, thought it might have some relevance. Stephen Trachtenberg, president of George Washington University, "Firms assume that law schools have already sifted through the pool of potential lawyers, so they look to the top schools to produce top employees, the ones to which they will give the highest salaries. Think about what you would do if you wanted to draft a great basketball player for the NBA: You'd look to the players from the teams that made it to the Final Four rather than scouring the whole country.”

fletch lives

Re:Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2003, 01:10:41 PM »
shaquille o' neal never played in a final four. nor did kevin garnett, lebron james, tim duncan, or many other fine basketball players. there are many avenues to success.

Re: Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2004, 04:42:46 PM »
I'm a relaltively new member and, while searching through old posts, came across this one.  I get so sick of people arguing that that the LSAT is an adequate predictor of someone's success in the profession of law.  Take me for instance.  I suck at this test.  I've practiced my ass off and can't get above the 150's.  Does this mean I'll make a bad lawyer?  The implication is offensive.  I currently work as a Paralegal and do the research and a lot of the writing that attorney's use in their cases.  I know I am already well equipped and I haven't even started law school. 

I also want to add that the firm for which I work, which is a huge firm of approximately 400 attorneys in DC, hires graduates from all types of schools.  This includes tier 3's.  All of the attorneys I've spoken to say it doesn't matter what school you attend;  what matters is how well you do while you are there.  Granted, your salary may not be as high as someone coming from Harvard or Yale, however, once you are in the door you can easily move up the ranks with hard work.  I've seen it done countless times.

Just venting.  Sometimes I feel like this board is full of elitist, young brats who have no clue what the real world, especially the working world, is all about.

ruskiegirl

Re: Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2004, 04:50:40 PM »
I'm a relaltively new member and, while searching through old posts, came across this one.  I get so sick of people arguing that that the LSAT is an adequate predictor of someone's success in the profession of law.  Take me for instance.  I suck at this test.  I've practiced my ass off and can't get above the 150's.  Does this mean I'll make a bad lawyer?  The implication is offensive.  I currently work as a Paralegal and do the research and a lot of the writing that attorney's use in their cases.  I know I am already well equipped and I haven't even started law school. 

I also want to add that the firm for which I work, which is a huge firm of approximately 400 attorneys in DC, hires graduates from all types of schools.  This includes tier 3's.  All of the attorneys I've spoken to say it doesn't matter what school you attend;  what matters is how well you do while you are there.  Granted, your salary may not be as high as someone coming from Harvard or Yale, however, once you are in the door you can easily move up the ranks with hard work.  I've seen it done countless times.

Just venting.  Sometimes I feel like this board is full of elitist, young brats who have no clue what the real world, especially the working world, is all about.
This board isn't nearly as bad as the xoxohth board, although I do see your point about condecending remarks and elitist attitudes.  But, you have to understand, this is a message board and the anonymity factor will make people say things they would not dare say to someone in person.  They can hide behind a monkier and be an a-hole all day long - with no reprocussions.  You will find, however, that there are positive people here too, who will do everything they can to give you realistic advice with a healthy dose of encouragement.  Just take the pessimists with a grain of salt and you ought to be fine.  Ultimately, the whole process is up to you, and nothing that is said on this board -- including this rant -- is binding on the decisions you make about law school specifically and your life in general.  Keep your head up.  You're going to be just fine! ;D

Rowgirl

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Re: Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2004, 08:48:57 PM »
Here's my two cents, or whatever its worth:

Jennifer:  people like you are the reason I did not go to an Ivy League undergrad (and yes, I was offered admission at three of them).  Oh, and no offense to Lexy!  You're cuddly sweet like Snuggle. 

NY:  Start working on that personal statement now!  If you can convey your desire to attend law school and become a lawyer as well to an adcom as you did to us, that can only help.  Good Luck!

CJLaw

Re: Low LSAT Very High GPA What Can I do?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2004, 09:30:30 PM »
C'mon folks stop with the happy, happy, perfect world posts already. Yes, jennifer is a very obnoxious pre-law, who speaks of the process first hand, but has yet to take the LSAT or be accepted to a law school, but that doesn't make her Satan's spawn . . . she is just an a-hole.

Her comments to the OP were a bit harsh, but they still ring true.

To the OP: Don't embarass yourself by taking the LSAT again. Polish your essay writing by investing in some professional help to improve your personal statement, get some stellar LOR's, and apply to some 4th tier schools. Focus  on schools with part-time and summer trial programs. You may still have a chance of being accepted to one of those. At orientation this week, I sat next to two girls from our summer trial program (one scored 141, the other 145), so it can be done.

To jennifer: You will fit right in with the Ivy League crowd. I would pay to see the expression on your face during your first day of class when that grizzly old school prof takes a chunk out of your ass for looking down at your brief when presenting the assigned case. That is, IF you don't choke out like that other rube on this forum who postponed taking the LSAT because he "felt he was only prepared enough to get a 174". You, like that guy, probably have all sorts of brains, but no class or character. . . . the classic cookie cutter ivy lover. Oh, and do LSD a favor. Until you are an actual law student or at least until you are accepted somewhere--don't give out advice, especially to the newbs. People post "what are my chances" threads in hopes of getting advice from people who have REAL knowledge and experience in the process, not from some cocky file clerk making less than a manager at Burger King.