Law School Discussion

Touro Law Center

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2005, 07:17:21 AM »
Hey Dunson..Thanks for the info.

Do you think this new law campus has the ability to really strengthen Touro's reputation?  I am choosing between Touro, New England and UDMercy right now.  While I know they are all roughly of the same status, I just want to attend the school that will give me the best bang for my buck and will prove a good investment.  What do you think?  Any word on when they realistically plan to have the building completed?


Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2005, 07:56:20 AM »
I don't know too much about those other schools.  I do think Touro may begin to see a return on this new building, especially if they push the programs they have with the US Attorneys office and their proximity to the courts.  Might see a jump in the rankings or a steady push upwards if they market well, I think its a good regional school with potential. 

What do you think you want to do with your law degree?

Go to Touro and you can, fairly easily, get a small firm job on Long Island without much trouble.  I work in that exact situation now and you can expect to make between 50-55 first year, with a decent bonus (5-10k) and a nice raise (5-10k also) because the learning curve is steep.  This info is for the rather small firms, there are some larger ones here that, from what I understand, pay 70-75 to start.  Oh, and biglaw is not impossible.  I work with an attorney now who graduated top 25% part time and worked for a big firm in the city before settling down.

The building may very well be complete on target.  But knowing how long island (and most construction companies) work, it will be done at least a few months passed schedule.

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2005, 08:04:02 AM »
Thanks for the info...Greatly appreciate it.  Did you go there yourself?

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2005, 08:22:19 AM »

>>>Fordham Law is ranked #27 in the nation- its a Tier 1 school. It doesn't have the same prestige as NYU, Cornell or Columbia- but its certainly more than just a "decent regional school" in my opinion.

Brooklyn and Cardozo are ranked #58, Fordham is #27 (which is firmly within Tier 1)- and if you look at the stats for the entering classes, you'll see that Fordham's is several cuts above Brooklyn and Cardozo- which are both still great schools that both have the top quarter of their classes getting into BigLaw after graduation. Sure NYU grads can all get into BigLaw, but half of Fordham's class can, which is still pretty damn impressive.

Both Brooklyn and Cardozo are significantly better than Hofstra and St. John's. It and Hofstra are still not on the same level as Brooklyn or Cardozo. Only about the top 10% of Hofstra and St. John's could get into BigLaw, instead of the top 25% from Brooklyn and Cardozo.

SUNY Buffalo is a Tier 2 school- NYLS is either a Tier 3 or a Tier 4 school, I don't remember which, but I do remember that Buffalo is Tier 2.

Okay you are correct if you were to blindly rely only on the US News Rankings.

The way I wrote it is the way law firms and the NYC legal community overall views all schools based on an average of the school's quality from about 1996 to the Present.

Fordham is a solid regional school, and it is indeed Tier 1, however bottom of the class (50% and below) end up working at the SAME law firms as BLS and Cardozo grads. I should know because I had friends in that same boat (and guess what, they received interviews at small firms just like the rest of BLS/Cardozo people).

another misconception is the diference between Hofstra/SJU and BLS/Cardozo. I went to BLS and while I always thought BLS and Cardozo were leagues above Hofstra/SJU in terms of admissions, their local rep is still pretty solid. My law firm makes NO DISTINCTION between a Brooklyn grad and a Hofstra grad. Sad but true. You still need to be top 20% from all 4 schools to get a BIGLAW job.

The reason a BLS student ranked top 32% may end up at a big law firm whereas a Hofstra 2L ranked in the same 32% may not is due ot intangibles, like undergrad attended (BLS student may have gone to Williams College and written a paper about corporate governance or something). Also, BLS offers competitive clinics that are attractive to employers when listed on a resume. Hofstra has bad clinics in my opinion, esp for students who have no interest in civil litigation or public sector/criminal law work.

For ex: Brooklyn offers the Securities Arb clinic which gives students an advantage over similarly situated students at other local schools like Hofstra/SJU/NYLS and grades being EQUAL, an employer who handles Securities cases will prefer the Brooklyn student who participated in that clinic over a NYLS/Hof/SJU student who didn't have that opportunity because the school does not offer that particular clinic.

In that sense, then YES students at Brooklyn and Cardozo edge out the rest by a SMALL margin.

But when it comes to standard small and mid-sized firms that practice general commercial litigation, there IS NO difference. Ask any attorney at the Nassau County Supreme courthouse, Queens County or in Brooklyn, and they will all tell you,"I think NYU, Col and Fordham are top schools, but once you get into T2,T3 it doesnt matter *&^%."


Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2005, 09:17:19 AM »
i like to hear what u say and i hope its true, but id really like if someone that knows this firsthand can come and verify this.

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2005, 11:09:34 AM »
i like to hear what u say and i hope its true, but id really like if someone that knows this firsthand can come and verify this.

IM next time you are online (if you uas AOL instant messenger) and I'll be happy to refer you to some lawyer friends of mine who feel the same way.

I worked for 1 federal judge who agrees with this assesment, and also 2 state court judges who were my professors in law school (for a clinic and an elective evening course).  I think its silly to argue the merits of one school being "better" or "worse" than another by virtue of a 5-10 spot difference in USNews. Since its a magazine, the editors at US News are obligated to move schools up and down just to create a stir and get people to buy the issue, its all about simple marketing and advertising. If Hofstra dropped to Tier 4 one year does it mean the school is as crappy as CUNY?? Would things change if they went back to Tier 2? Please.

Anyway you slice it, if you want to work for a big law firm - it doesn't matter which of the 4 schools you pick (BLS/Cardozo/SJU/Hofstra) to get a job at BIGLAW. Your grades still have to be stellar. If you're at NYU or Columbia, then all bets are off - since practically 50-75% of the the graduating class come out earning a 6 figure salary.

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2005, 11:18:34 AM »
So getting back to the original topic of this discussion, what is the deal if you went to Touro? How do you fare in the eyes of law firms?

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2005, 11:35:16 AM »
From personal experience, I've only met about 8 Touro grads in my internships during law school and at my current firm. I met none when I worked in the federal courthouse in Brooklyn & Manhattan. I did have one case last week where my opposing counsel was a 2000 Touro grad, he was much older (early 40's) but very well regarded in his firm. I liked dealing with him, he was very peresonable.

I don't have much exposure to Touro grads though, as my understanding is that the majority of private firms that hire and retain Touro grads practice in the area of personal injury or local insurance defense.

You might want to speak to current Touro students to get a better sense of career prospects. The law firms around Suffolk County are pretty receptive to Touro grads getting hired as interns or entry level attorneys.

If you are interested in firm placement, you might want to check out Martindale Hubbell

Plug in the name of a law firm and type "Touro" in the School Name field.

For Wilson Elser (600 attorney insurance defense law firm with offices throughout Northeast), I only found 5 Touro grads.

For Wilson Elser, I plugged in Hofstra and received 19 listings:

I did a search for the # of Brooklyn grads at Wilson Elser and received 36 gradautes:

More startling, I also put in St. John's Law in the field for Wilson Elser and found 56 graduates:

So as a tally:

56 = St. Johns

36= Brooklyn

19 = Hofstra

5 = Touro

You start to see a pattern..right?

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2005, 11:54:30 AM »

TIER 2 (decent regional schools)
St. John's

TIER 3 (solid local only)

SUNY Buffalo

TIER 4 (bad rep, piss poor bar passage rate and high attrition)

CUNY Queens

I'd agree with everything with the exception of placing NYLS as a Second Tier school; I assume this was a mistake so I won't make much of it. It is barely a Third Tier school, and (if not in Manhattan) it would be a Fourth Tier school.

Re: Touro Law Center
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2005, 12:08:56 PM »
sorry -

Cardoza and brooklyn are both great schools with solid alumni base and solid academics - and great exit potential

but in NO way can you put Fordham, Brooklyn, Cardoz, and NYLS and St. johns in the same tier or level.

If Cornell, NYU, and COlumbia are Level 1

and BLS and Cardoza are Level 2 then Fordham is level 1.5

you can't put fordham smack in with BLS and Cardoza - there is over a 30 point ranking difference between these schools.

and while cross admits to BLS and Cardoza may be evenly split as to where they go...Fordham cross admits almost always go to Fordham.