In 2010, will FSU have surpassed UF?

[TheFloridaGuy]

Hey Willy, I heard Machen has gotten rid of the Florida resident cap for UF law.  Not sure if thats correct or not, but if it is, it's all about the rankings.

Wow, I wonder if that is true.  If so, it could have major implications for UF, since they reject a lot of their best candidates (out-of-state).  If you find a link to the news, let me know.

By the way, is Machen really nationally known?  I had never heard of him before he came to UF.

I don't think Machen is nationally known.  I think he was the best available from a poor applicant pool.  UF was hoping to pull someone from a top 20 University, but the lousy pay and the lower prestige kept them from getting someone they really wanted.
With the cap its all about the rankings game.  Will UF be able to keep the 1 pt avg lsat lead over Miami and FSU now that FSU takes the higher score, and the .3 avg gpa lead over both once they have to report a Fall class of 400 instead of 200.  Miami already reports a class of 430 while FSU is about 230.  Right now UF can be more selective because they only need to fill up a class of 200 for the fall, and the rankings don't take into account the lower scores and gpas that the spring class averages.  That keeps their yield low like FSU.  UF's acceptance rate is around 13% for the fall, FSU's I believe is 17% while Miami's is 35%.  Should be interesting to see what happens.

[lawrankler]

I am not sure where you get the "almot 50%" FSU graduates in government practice.  That figure is wrong.  The ABA statistics have 30% of FSU graduates going into government practice, and 24% of UF graduates going into government practice.  There is a bit of a revolving door here.  Many of the most successful lawyers start out at US Attorneys, or agency lawyers, going to law firms laterally with premium experience later in their careers.

We should not only look at total placement numbers, but look at the quality of the placements.  Nova graduates who are solo or small frm practitioners in Miami do not matter one bit in evaluating your placement in the market.  As I see it, the question is which graduates are likely to be consider by larger firms, and I think that here UF and FSU are competitive; about some firms (e.g., Stearns, Weaver) have a preference for FSU graduates, while others (Holland, Knight) have a preference for UF grads, everything else equal.

[TheFloridaGuy]

I am not sure where you get the "almot 50%" FSU graduates in government practice.  That figure is wrong.  The ABA statistics have 30% of FSU graduates going into government practice, and 24% of UF graduates going into government practice.  There is a bit of a revolving door here.  Many of the most successful lawyers start out at US Attorneys, or agency lawyers, going to law firms laterally with premium experience later in their careers.

We should not only look at total placement numbers, but look at the quality of the placements.  Nova graduates who are solo or small frm practitioners in Miami do not matter one bit in evaluating your placement in the market.  As I see it, the question is which graduates are likely to be consider by larger firms, and I think that here UF and FSU are competitive; about some firms (e.g., Stearns, Weaver) have a preference for FSU graduates, while others (Holland, Knight) have a preference for UF grads, everything else equal.

I'm looking at the FSU law brochure for prospective students and they're reporting in their own statistics that only 48% of their class places in firms.  The rest go into govt and special interest law. I was grouping govt and special interest together.  I do agree however that many govt lawyers do move to firms to finally make some money, and are sought after for their experience.  I agree that FSU and UF grads are competitive in the big firms if you do well, just that if you don't do well you have a better shot of landing firm jobs from UF over FSU just because there is more UF alumni working in firms and everything being equal lawyers always hire from their alma mater.

[borderlaw]

These replies have provided great information. I hope everyone who took the time to reply has also received great help on this board.

[Intuition]

Agreed about the hiring of Machen...FloridaGuy, do you remember how difficult it was for UF to find a replacement for the interim President? He even stayed longer than he originally planned (if I remember correctly through the haze of my undergrad) because they were struggling to fill the post.

As for Machen being nationally known, I don't think he's nationally known as a President. Although he did work for the Univ. of Michigan for several years, he simply hasn't made a huge name for himself around the country just yet. He did good things at Utah prior to coming to UF, but he's still working his way up the food chain. With that said, I think he's got a good vision for UF, trying to mold it somewhat like Michigan.

UF is definitely not the "Harvard of the South"....that distinction will always belong to Duke in my mind. I think it is the best overall public university south of UVA, though. It's by no means amazing. It does have a very good Med School and a decent Law School.

As for UF Law, it's going to be very interesting to see how they handle the switch to Fall admissions only, with no Spring class. I'm considering UF since I want to practice in the SE...the renovations they are currently doing should give the facilities (esp. the library) a nice upgrade.

[HeatFan]

My comments:

3 things in life are certain: Death, Taxes, and UF will always be a better University than FSU.

For undergrad FSU is where the UF rejects go except for a slim few.  The best students who stay in state go to UF or UM.  

However, as a grad of UF I can agree that I am not too impressed with the intellect at UF either.  Whenever someone says the Harvard of the South all you can do is laugh and say that is ridiculous.
Most peope I have spoken to in other areas of the country think FSU is a football cowtown and UF is a party school.

As for lawschool.  I also do not ever see FSU surpassing UF in the rankings.  The small class they take will not help their reputation which takes years to improve. Their reputation is only a 2.7 and 2.8 in USNews.  Only around 110 people go to firms after graduating from FSU.  The other 52% go into government or public interest.  This means either they can't get good firm jobs or they just want to work in those areas.  It is probably a combination of both.  

FSU's jump is due to playing the rankings game.  They started taking the higher LSAT last year and they have accepted less people, and have reduced their faculty to student ratio. All things that USnews rewards.  However, looking at past rankings their reputation has stayed basically the same, which is the most important category.  USNews jsut reports whatever the schools tell them, that is why schools manipulate all sorts of numbers.  I highly doubt USNEWS polices this misrepresentation. Although FSU says their median is a 159 I highly doubt that is the true average LSAT. Just look at lawschoolnumbers which is usually skewed towards higher numbers and almost everyone has lsat's of 157 or 158.  Also there are at least 4 or 5 cases of students getting rejected by UF and UM on lawschooldiscussion alone and even waitlisted at Stetson but accepted into FSU because of the higher lsat policy.  It is FSU's way to play the rankings game.  

As far as out of state, UF and FSU both get no respect for job placement.  They are both seen as southern schools and aren't respected however UF has a edge from what I have heard.  UM is by far the school to go if you have dreams of working in the Northeast.

Although I believe FSU has made some strides I think people are fooled into thinking it is a better school all of a sudden because it moved up in the rankings.  They are another classic example of playing the rankings game to manipulate numbers, when in reality the are getting close to the same type of students and their repuation and job placement has stayed the same. THey will always take a backseat to UF and other schools for the time being and I believe well into the future.

my humble opinion

[BoscoBreaux]

Much has been made so far about whether FSU, UF, Miami is a good option for someone contemplating working in NYC. Some points are good, others are based in conventional wisdom, but most on myth.
Does Miami place well in NYC? Depends on what you mean by "place." Many persons attend Miami from the Northeast (go to Miami Beach on a weekday, and you're as likely to hear Brooklyn accents as you are Cuban accents). These students tend to avoid the state schools, many of which are located in--well, the sticks.  Many of them ALREADY have connections back in NYC (especially those in the Jewish community). So, they head back upon graduation, partly because they fully intended to after graduation, and partly because there aren't that many jobs in Miami to support 4 law schools. Miami's relatively high starting salary is a function of this NYC flight, and not an acknowledgement of quality. So, these graduates, even if they went to UF, FSU, etc. would get a job in NYC, assuming they had the contacts to begin with. Miami's placement office will be helpful, but the extent to which it would be helpful is overblown.

The bottom line is none of the schools mentioned fulfills the requirements of getting a job in NYC: go to a local school, or go to a Top 13/14/15 or similar "wow" school.

As for whether FSU will surpass UF in 2010...I'll leave that to speculation.

[lawrankler]

I agree that a lot of the comments here are based on myth.  Look at the facts. 

Let's not make accusations about playing the rankings game.  FSU hired 5 new faculty last year, and admitted a smaller class; this why its student faculty ratio improved, but I suspect that this is a real improvement in quality. 

FSU's prestige in the law profession has definitely gone up, as it has seen graduates appointed to the Florida Supreme Court, elected to the U.S. Senate, etc., but I agree that it still has a long ways to go.  I think it is closing the gap with UF, but I stand by earlier claim that both schools will become top 50 schools.  A state like Florida will have at least two top 50 schools, if for no other reason the large number of large urban markets we support.  Many lawyers at the top firms in the state see this and know it is happening.  My firm discusses it at our recruiting retreat.  I have met faculty from both UF and FSU -- UF has some washed out folks, but FSU has more young blood and energy, in my opinion.

Of course, if you want to make accusations about the rankings game, UF plays it too (it is well known among law firms in Florida that for years UF only reported numbers for a Fall class, as U.S. News allows them and many other law schools to -- one of their Deans even bragged about this!).  Some UF lawyers in my firm make the same argument you made here, but our recruiting director has confirmed that FSU's numbers are consistent with the numbers it reports to the ABA, which U.S. News does verify.  FSU cannot selective report whatever LSAT it wishes, as it does not have two different classes.  It must report the 25th and 75th LSAT of students admitted.  UF must report the same, but is allowed to report this for the most recent class for which it has numbers (which is almost always Fall, which allows them to exclude LSAT).

[Intuition]

Next year's rankings should be very interesting with UF doing away with its Spring admissions for good. I'm not sure off the top of my head, but I believe in Fall 2006, UF will admit a full class. The following rankings cycle may tell us alot about UF's real numbers. Only time will tell.

[HeatFan]

Much has been made so far about whether FSU, UF, Miami is a good option for someone contemplating working in NYC. Some points are good, others are based in conventional wisdom, but most on myth.
Does Miami place well in NYC? Depends on what you mean by "place." Many persons attend Miami from the Northeast (go to Miami Beach on a weekday, and you're as likely to hear Brooklyn accents as you are Cuban accents). These students tend to avoid the state schools, many of which are located in--well, the sticks.  Many of them ALREADY have connections back in NYC (especially those in the Jewish community). So, they head back upon graduation, partly because they fully intended to after graduation, and partly because there aren't that many jobs in Miami to support 4 law schools. Miami's relatively high starting salary is a function of this NYC flight, and not an acknowledgement of quality. So, these graduates, even if they went to UF, FSU, etc. would get a job in NYC, assuming they had the contacts to begin with. Miami's placement office will be helpful, but the extent to which it would be helpful is overblown.

The bottom line is none of the schools mentioned fulfills the requirements of getting a job in NYC: go to a local school, or go to a Top 13/14/15 or similar "wow" school.

This is one of the many FSU/UF threads so I'll try to make this short.  I agree with you about to work in NYC the prerequisites need to be go to a top 14 or a local school.  However, nobody was comparing the Florida schools to those "wow" law schools.  They were being compared to each other.  Your points are assumptions based on assumptions and however some maybe true the fact of the matter is that UM places better in the Northeast (not just NYC) than the other two Florida schools by a large margin.  For whatever the reason is, UM is respected in the Northeast and places better than a good amount of Northeastern schools according to the new elite firm placement study that was recently done.  UF and FSU are seen as southern schools and UM is not.  I have talked to a good amount of lawyers and although far from representative they have told me this as well.


On another note, I believe all law schools are guilty of playing the ranking games.  Some schools just do it harder than others.  Yes UF plays the game while just giving their fall numbers.  I expect their numbers to drop with a class of 400 unless they remove the instate requirements which I am pretty sure they have.  However, FSU is playing the rankings game to a higher degree evidenced by their taking the higher LSAT and worrying about yield protection, etc.  FSU's numbers are consistent with the ABA USNEws, however they are the manipulated taking the higher LSAT score that has helped their increase, which they report.