In 2010, will FSU have surpassed UF?

[borderlaw]

I am hoping that FSU can eventually surpass UF in the rankings.
Is this highly unlikely?

[lawrankler]

I suspect that the two schools are approaching parity in the rankings, but UF has a bit of an edge currently.  The trend is clearly towards something like you see in states like Arizona and California, where Arizona and Arizona State or UC-Davis and Hastings are very close competitors.  I think that FSU will become a top 50 law school, but I also think that UF will continue to be a top 50, and possibly as highly ranked as the lower 30s within the next 5 years.  If UF does really stupid things, FSU will surpass it, but that is unlikely.  The gap will close between both schools, but both schools will move up in national rankings.

Things to watch for:

-FSU's faculty:  They have attracted a faculty that is much better than the law school.  Can they hold on to them, being in given their isoliation?

-FSU's success in new markets:  I hear that FSU graduates have made serious headway in the Atlanta firms but can FSU place graduates in markets like Atlanta, D.C., New York, or will it always be a Florida law school (with success in Miami, Tampa, etc., but little additional placement success)?

-FSU's association with FSU:  Whatever good is going on at FSU's law school, they are associated with what many in Florida and nationally see as a weak university.  UF has a major edge when it comes to overall student quality at the undergraduate level and graduate programs.

-UF's size:  With it's large size, can UF compete nationally on employment numbers? 

-UF's ability to move up beyond where it is:  Can UF compete with the schools immediately above it?  Very unclear how it can do so, given its size and limited aspirations to be the best in Florida.   

I agree with Brian Leiter that FSU is one of the under-ranked and under-recognized law schools.  It has an impressive faculty (more so than UF or even Georgia or Alabama, in my opinion), one of the best environmental law programs in the country, and it jumped 11 slots in the rankings this year.  In my opinion, we should watch for it to break the top 50, especially if they continue to increase the student quality numbers on LSAT/GPA (which has gone up a lot for FSU in recent years).

[borderlaw]

Wow- Thanks for that reply.
BTW...do you think that someone who does well at FSU would have a hard time finding a job in NY?

[lawrankler]

I don't think it will be easy to get a job in New York coming from FSU, but also I don't think it is any easier coming from UF or any other Florida law school.  Both schools have placed some recent graduates in major NYC firms.  Although FSU does have some well-placed alumni in NYC, the law school probably has less than 100 alumni in the NYC area -- you would need to rely on this network, your own initiative and sheer luck.  The placement offices at both UF and FSU have limited options if you are looking in NYC.  Sorry to be so grim about this, but even Emory and Duke graduates complain about their lack of NYC options!  Most non-top 20 law school graduates who are successful in NYC move their first and then find a job. 

[---------]

FSU isn't considered an overall  weak university. Their average incoming GPA for college freshmen is a 3.8. UF's is a 3.9. The SAT/ACT scores are almost the same(Uf has a very slight edge). Speaking as someone who works in graduate admissions in FL,I can say that FL ad-coms consider these two schools to be the strongest in the state.

However,that's FL. The rest of the nation,except for maybe parts of the SE,doesn't give a damn about either school.
Neither of them will help  you get a job in NY. You're better off going to a 4th tier in NYC. Neither school has any pull outside the SE.

[lawrankler]

From my daughter's materials I see that the SAT score difference is nearly 100 points, isn't it?  That's pretty big.  And UF has a much bigger pool of students at the top (national merit scholars), which gives it more national prestige.  I think that there are major differences in national reputation.  For example, UF is an AAU member with a university president with a national reputation.  FSU has a former football player and state politician hardly known outside of Tallahassee as president.  Look at US News and NRC reputation rankings based on reputation score.  UF does substantially better in almost every program than FSU.  Also, visit their web sites.  UF promotes itself as a serious research university.  FSU promotes itself as a sports school in a state capitol that has some research.  I see a big difference, to the extent you might be buying the prestige of the university, which should be a factor in deciding where to go to school.  Perhaps I am introducing some privincial bias.  But I did attend FSU and I am from S. Florida.  UF is clearly the top choice for most of the top HS students in S. Florida.  Most of my daughter's HS classmates are going to FSU becuase they did not get into UF.  Everyone she knows who got into UF is going -- save a few mmusic types and some misguided kids with parents who are FSU boosters.  Unfortunately, at present FSU is seen as the party school alternative to UF, for those who did not get in.  The law schools are much more even, but there is no real competition between the universities if we are talking about undergraduate or graduate programs more generally -- UF beats FSU in almost every area (music and performing arts the exception). 

[---------]

From my daughter's materials I see that the SAT score difference is nearly 100 points, isn't it?  That's pretty big.  And UF has a much bigger pool of students at the top (national merit scholars), which gives it more national prestige.  I think that there are major differences in national reputation.  For example, UF is an AAU member with a university president with a national reputation.  FSU has a former football player and state politician hardly known outside of Tallahassee as president.  Look at US News and NRC reputation rankings based on reputation score.  UF does substantially better in almost every program than FSU.  Also, visit their web sites.  UF promotes itself as a serious research university.  FSU promotes itself as a sports school in a state capitol that has some research.  I see a big difference, to the extent you might be buying the prestige of the university, which should be a factor in deciding where to go to school.  Perhaps I am introducing some privincial bias.  But I did attend FSU and I am from S. Florida.  UF is clearly the top choice for most of the top HS students in S. Florida.  Most of my daughter's HS classmates are going to FSU becuase they did not get into UF.  Everyone she knows who got into UF is going -- save a few mmusic types and some misguided kids with parents who are FSU boosters.  Unfortunately, at present FSU is seen as the party school alternative to UF, for those who did not get in.  The law schools are much more even, but there is no real competition between the universities if we are talking about undergraduate or graduate programs more generally -- UF beats FSU in almost every area (music and performing arts the exception). 

Due to my job,I've probably spent more time looking at US News than most people ever have the displeasure to.
I'm not arguing that UF generally outranks FSU. I don't see 70 points  being a dramatic SAT score difference. The scores are probably 5-9% points away.

Having lived in the NE most of my life, and having worked in an admissions office in MA for a little over a year,I can tell you that  UF doesn't have anymore of a pull than FSU does. They're both southern state schools.Both FSU and UF are regularly ranked as the nations top party schools by the Princeton review. Both have almost no pull outside of their respective areas. If the OP wants to work in NY,he should go to school there.

[Intuition]

The one area where I think it will still take quite a bit of time for FSU to catch UF is in its alumni network. Rankings may flip-flop, but I think it will take more than 5 more years for the good ole boy network of the south to be affected by the change, IMHO.

[TheFloridaGuy]

FSU isn't considered an overall  weak university. Their average incoming GPA for college freshmen is a 3.8. UF's is a 3.9. The SAT/ACT scores are almost the same(Uf has a very slight edge). Speaking as someone who works in graduate admissions in FL,I can say that FL ad-coms consider these two schools to be the strongest in the state.

However,that's FL. The rest of the nation,except for maybe parts of the SE,doesn't give a damn about either school.
Neither of them will help  you get a job in NY. You're better off going to a 4th tier in NYC. Neither school has any pull outside the SE.

Well if you look at the US News rankings UF is 49 or 50 for undergrad, while Miami is 58 and FSU is 111.  I still think FSU is not a weak school as the above poster puts it, but rankings wise its not near UF.

[TheFloridaGuy]

The one area where I think it will still take quite a bit of time for FSU to catch UF is in its alumni network. Rankings may flip-flop, but I think it will take more than 5 more years for the good ole boy network of the south to be affected by the change, IMHO.

FSU was founded in 1966, UF in 1905 or 1908, plus UF graduates 400 students every year, while FSU is about 220.  UF has a huge alumni base that is constantly talking itself up, so the state is brainwashed about how great UF law is, when in reality it doesn't mean much outside of Florida.