UC Davis vs. Loyola LA. Anyone?

[Candide!]

anner,

well, at least you sound resonable at this point. you sounded off your rocker for a long time. but i do have a quick rebuttle...

i didn't "spin" Davis' numbers as far as my source goes. i know yuo are saying thier LSATS are 162-166, but i dont know where you are getting that. i am sitting here with my 2006 edition of USNews Graduate Rankings. In black and white (actually in black and toupe) I see as I am typing this that the 2004 entering class at Davis has

GPA  3.39-3.72
LSAT 160-164

Loyola has

GPA  3.14-3.58
LSAT 159-164

I don't know of a more reliable source for that information. And as an aside Loyola's class is almost double the size of Davis, naturally making the numbers work against Loyola and work for Davis. But i am not here to contend all that. At least give Loyola its credit.

Dont try to make it seem like your only criticism of Loyola students were their so-cal attitude. You said explicity that there is a difference between Loyola students at Top tier students.

anner:
"But there is an obvious difference between the students at LLS vs. first tier schools.  It is fairly obvious, actually.  I dunno, part of me was hoping i would hear something that could redeem their reputation, but all in all its the same old stuff."

"Everyone there either seems to think they should have gotten in to a better school, or they are thrilled because they did much better on the LSAT than they hoped and a 159 with a 3.0 GPA is enough to get in." 

regarding Davis...
" I will say i was kinda excited to meet other incoming 1L's.  there really is a difference when you go to more selective schools, and it is pretty obvious in this sense.  I just figure, since i am gonna spend so much time in school, i might as well surround myself with people who challenge me."

You also make the claim that you can get into Loyola with a 3.0 and 159 (though true in a small number of cases, it is equally true at Davis. Check LSN if you need proof), and that you chose Davis because you would rather go to a school with students that will challenge you. i dont know how I misinterpreted that. seems very clear what you were trying to say...

But you are correct anner, I was very pro-Hastings. It doesn't have the reputation it deserves with 0Ls. I still feel this is true. And you are right in that i though with "our" numbers that I would get in. But at that time I also was not expecting a full scholarship from Loyola. I can assure you that once I recieved the scholarship offer from Loyola I felt Hastings was instantly out of the running, as they do not offer hefty scholarships to compete at all. My motto at the time was that Hastings would have to come at me with a half tuition scholarship to sway me to go, and they dont even have such a thing. Yes, my ego was bruised when I was rejected from Hastings because I felt I should have gotten in, but I would not have been attending either way. And to set the record straight i never thought Hastings "sucked" as you claim. The rejection letter didn't change my opinion of Hastings or Loyola one iota. Same goes with USC as a matter of fact. I knew I would never recieve scholarship money from them if I was accepted and I personally didn't feel the education was worth $100,000 more than Loyola. So I felt at the time that I was waiting to hear from USC that even an offer of acceptance from them would still find me heading to Loyola for financial reasons come August.I know of several people turning down top 20 offers for 2nd tier full rides, so this shouldn't sound like a fictional story to anyone...

In fact the only two people I am in contact with at the moment that will be attending Loyola in the fall are two people that were given a full ride and are declining offers at various top 20 programs.

I only came to Loyolas defense, anner, when you started to make undue claims about the school because you seemed to have a bone to pick with administartion. there was no need to criticize the students and glorify davis students to make yourself feel better or to justify your decision. the difference between the two schools, though discernable, is relativly small, and not gigantic and palpable as you claim. i came to Loyolas defense because you were talking about me, essentially, and it was untrue.

and to say it officially, i never criticized any school to make myself feel better about attending Loyola. Please dont spin my arguments about why "Loyola for free is a smart decision" into how much Hastings or Davis suck, because i certainly do not feel that way.

[anner]

sorry, but I do feel like you were being snotty, and trying to make it seem like I was bashing loyola to death.  I have and do feel like they are much more disorganized than any other school i have seen.  so what?  i am entitled to my opinion. 

I got the lsat/gpa info from the davis website.  as you all know, the numbers LSAC and US News have are a couple years old (the latter is newer, but still old enough to not apply anymore).  That doesn't really matter anyway, I just liked the students at davis.  I did feel like they were smart, creative, and part of an incredibly nurturing environment that on the whole seemed rare as far as law school is concerned.  Does that mean that loyola has a bunch of dumb students?  No, not at all.  BUT, i think the combination of the environment and the people who choose a specific school makes a difference in how I interpret it. I basically look at loyola as a commuter school, where everyone is just trying to get the degree done with.  There are a lot of students who love it and are active.  but a lot aren't, because it is ok not to be there.  There are a lot of part-timers as well.  Thats awesome.  Davis is just much smaller, everyone GOES to that school, has to move from whereever they are, etc, and i think there is a different mentality when you are willing to uproot yourself in order to study. People just seem really committed there.  I dont know how else to describe it but thats really what it was. 

 i ended up liking davis a  lot more.  And yeh, sorry, but Loyola is easier to get into.  I am not referring to the numbers, but in general. There are many many more spaces, and about the same amount of applicants.  I think that there is a larger proportion of kids who go JUST BECAUSE since it IS in LA and they dont have to move.  Not all, but enough for me to see a few, and get turned off. I am not saying those people are dumb either, but again, I am hoping to be around other people with life-experience, and are as goal-driven as I am.  There were more of them at davis.

you get it?  I am not dissing loyola.  But i did notice a difference, and its hard to put into words.  You just go with your gut feelings, and thats how i felt.  but i am one person, an individual, with completely different criteria for what I want from my education, career, etc.  So yeh, candide/t-bone, i dont want to go and would rather pay a couple thousand (the difference is not that big actually) for what I think would be a better experience.

phew.

You do have to get over yourself though.  Big freaking deal, you got 170's on your practice LSATs and performed worse than you thought you would on the actual test day.  Big deal you got a full-ride.  I am just being friendly when I say that you have to get over that, the whole score-driven, salary-statistic, whatEVER.  If you do well, you will do well.  thats it.  but PUHLEASE, take heed.  If you act like this IN law school, bring up your LSAT (and what you think you SHOULD have gotten on your LSAT), go out of your way to brag about your full-ride, you will make nothing but enemies.  That will hurt your career much more than getting in the bottom of the class.

 

[Candide!]

sorry, but I do feel like you were being snotty, and trying to make it seem like I was bashing loyola to death.  I have and do feel like they are much more disorganized than any other school i have seen.  so what?  i am entitled to my opinion. 

I got the lsat/gpa info from the davis website.  as you all know, the numbers LSAC and US News have are a couple years old (the latter is newer, but still old enough to not apply anymore).  That doesn't really matter anyway, I just liked the students at davis.  I did feel like they were smart, creative, and part of an incredibly nurturing environment that on the whole seemed rare as far as law school is concerned.  Does that mean that loyola has a bunch of dumb students?  No, not at all.  BUT, i think the combination of the environment and the people who choose a specific school makes a difference in how I interpret it. I basically look at loyola as a commuter school, where everyone is just trying to get the degree done with.  There are a lot of students who love it and are active.  but a lot aren't, because it is ok not to be there.  There are a lot of part-timers as well.  Thats awesome.  Davis is just much smaller, everyone GOES to that school, has to move from whereever they are, etc, and i think there is a different mentality when you are willing to uproot yourself in order to study. People just seem really committed there.  I dont know how else to describe it but thats really what it was. 

 i ended up liking davis a  lot more.  And yeh, sorry, but Loyola is easier to get into.  I am not referring to the numbers, but in general. There are many many more spaces, and about the same amount of applicants.  I think that there is a larger proportion of kids who go JUST BECAUSE since it IS in LA and they dont have to move.  Not all, but enough for me to see a few, and get turned off. I am not saying those people are dumb either, but again, I am hoping to be around other people with life-experience, and are as goal-driven as I am.  There were more of them at davis.

you get it?  I am not dissing loyola.  But i did notice a difference, and its hard to put into words.  You just go with your gut feelings, and thats how i felt.  but i am one person, an individual, with completely different criteria for what I want from my education, career, etc.  So yeh, candide/t-bone, i dont want to go and would rather pay a couple thousand (the difference is not that big actually) for what I think would be a better experience.

phew.

You do have to get over yourself though.  Big freaking deal, you got 170's on your practice LSATs and performed worse than you thought you would on the actual test day.  Big deal you got a full-ride.  I am just being friendly when I say that you have to get over that, the whole score-driven, salary-statistic, whatEVER.  If you do well, you will do well.  thats it.  but PUHLEASE, take heed.  If you act like this IN law school, bring up your LSAT (and what you think you SHOULD have gotten on your LSAT), go out of your way to brag about your full-ride, you will make nothing but enemies.  That will hurt your career much more than getting in the bottom of the class.

anner,

just to be clear (and this is nitpicking, i know) but the LSAT scores i gave are for the class that just finished thier 1L year- completely up to date.

yes, davis is a more collegiate feel. no doubt. i love collegiate atmospheres myself, but sometimes you dont get everything on your wish list out of the school that is the best choice for you.

i absolutly dont disagree that some people get into Loyola that do not get into Davis. But this is a numbers driven operation, and i do no believe the difference in numbers between the schools suggests a more apt student body at davis. even the current GPA/LSAT medians of those accepted from LSN show the differences i claimed earlier- about 2/10s of a GPA point, and 1 LSAT point. it is just too close to make sweeping generalizations about either school.

you have every right to like davis better than loyola. how can one compare an urban stand alone law campus to a rural full university campus? they are apples and oranges and everyone will prefer one to the other.

but i would argue that everyone that goes to Loyola are locals that just want to stay in LA. the two people I know who will be in my class next year are coming from Oregon and New Jersey, and those happen to be the two people I know of.

i too have issues with the admissions staff at Loyola. they are going through a bad period with the dean leaving and all. that has sucked. but the faculty i encountered have been amazingly  accessable and encouraging. i have had very positive experiences in that regard, and Loyola does not have the competetive reputation of many other schools. That is not to say that all it takes is for one person to hide a book and *bam* there you go. But that is certainly not the schools general reputation.

and anner, i havnt mentioned my practice LSAT scores for months. why bring them up yourself? i scored lower than i thought i would, but that is life. you move on. big deal.

i had no problem gaining lots of friends in undergrad. i am not worried about making enemies in law school. i am a very nice and supportive non-gunner non-jerk guy. 

cheers

[anner]

PS-

I wanted to address what I said about the administration.  I think that if the dean who left had any respect or love for the school, he would not have been as obvious as he was about leaving for UCLA.  The rest of the faculty was nice, but kind of seemed like it was just a job, they did not really strike me as overly helpful or excited to meet students.

When I met the davis faculty, they were much more approachable, helpful, and flat out NICE.  It could be because they are country folk, who knows (kidding),  but yeh, I look forward to going into office hours to talk with them.
There are also so few students, that the teach to student ratio is MUCH smaller.  I like that they will know my name, and that everyone is so community-oriented.  I didnt see anything like that at any other schools.
thought it was worth it to mention. 

[Candide!]

PS-

I wanted to address what I said about the administration.  I think that if the dean who left had any respect or love for the school, he would not have been as obvious as he was about leaving for UCLA.  The rest of the faculty was nice, but kind of seemed like it was just a job, they did not really strike me as overly helpful or excited to meet students.

When I met the davis faculty, they were much more approachable, helpful, and flat out NICE.  It could be because they are country folk, who knows (kidding),  but yeh, I look forward to going into office hours to talk with them.
There are also so few students, that the teach to student ratio is MUCH smaller.  I like that they will know my name, and that everyone is so community-oriented.  I didnt see anything like that at any other schools.
thought it was worth it to mention. 

the student/faculty ratio at Davis is good. 14.2/1

Loyola is 16.4/1    not MUCH different (Hastings is 22.7/1, for instance)


and when i wrote a prof at loyola about school the email i got back from him asked for my phone number so that we could talk at length. we he called me the next day we talked on the phone for over a half hour, at which time he invited me to attend several upcoming alumni-only events he would be speaking at regarding Entertainment Law.

everyone has different esperiences to be sure. one prof i talked to at the spring reception said that Loyola makes it very clear in interviewing professors that they are there to teach, not publish. the school has a very vocal open-door policy between students and faculty. not to mention the fact that most faculty have been there for well over ten years, indicating high levels of job satisfaction. i asked this professor about this and he agreed whole heartedly (he himself had been teaching at Loyola since the mid 80s) he said the professors genuinely LOVE teaching and love the school and he said the comraderie between the faculty was extremely high. that was the feeling i got seeing the professors interacting with each other at the recpetion.they seemed to be friends, not just co workers.

 And every once in awhile (about every 5 years, he said) they let go of a Prof if it is clear that they are not dedicated to thier students and to student learning. if student reviews come back low and the complaint is that the prof is not avalable and dedicated enough, he/she is fired. i thought that was unique among law schools.

but it is hard to gain a realistic view of a school from only talking to a small handful of people. two different people can come away from the same school with radically different experiences.

[Are we there yet?]

sorry, but I do feel like you were being snotty, and trying to make it seem like I was bashing loyola to death.  I have and do feel like they are much more disorganized than any other school i have seen.  so what?  i am entitled to my opinion. 

I got the lsat/gpa info from the davis website.  as you all know, the numbers LSAC and US News have are a couple years old (the latter is newer, but still old enough to not apply anymore).  That doesn't really matter anyway, I just liked the students at davis.  I did feel like they were smart, creative, and part of an incredibly nurturing environment that on the whole seemed rare as far as law school is concerned.  Does that mean that loyola has a bunch of dumb students?  No, not at all.  BUT, i think the combination of the environment and the people who choose a specific school makes a difference in how I interpret it. I basically look at loyola as a commuter school, where everyone is just trying to get the degree done with.  There are a lot of students who love it and are active.  but a lot aren't, because it is ok not to be there.  There are a lot of part-timers as well.  Thats awesome.  Davis is just much smaller, everyone GOES to that school, has to move from whereever they are, etc, and i think there is a different mentality when you are willing to uproot yourself in order to study. People just seem really committed there.  I dont know how else to describe it but thats really what it was. 

 i ended up liking davis a  lot more.  And yeh, sorry, but Loyola is easier to get into.  I am not referring to the numbers, but in general. There are many many more spaces, and about the same amount of applicants.  I think that there is a larger proportion of kids who go JUST BECAUSE since it IS in LA and they dont have to move.  Not all, but enough for me to see a few, and get turned off. I am not saying those people are dumb either, but again, I am hoping to be around other people with life-experience, and are as goal-driven as I am.  There were more of them at davis.

you get it?  I am not dissing loyola.  But i did notice a difference, and its hard to put into words.  You just go with your gut feelings, and thats how i felt.  but i am one person, an individual, with completely different criteria for what I want from my education, career, etc.  So yeh, candide/t-bone, i dont want to go and would rather pay a couple thousand (the difference is not that big actually) for what I think would be a better experience.

phew.

You do have to get over yourself though.  Big freaking deal, you got 170's on your practice LSATs and performed worse than you thought you would on the actual test day.  Big deal you got a full-ride.  I am just being friendly when I say that you have to get over that, the whole score-driven, salary-statistic, whatEVER.  If you do well, you will do well.  thats it.  but PUHLEASE, take heed.  If you act like this IN law school, bring up your LSAT (and what you think you SHOULD have gotten on your LSAT), go out of your way to brag about your full-ride, you will make nothing but enemies.  That will hurt your career much more than getting in the bottom of the class.

 

Ok I'm confused. Based on your posts thus far, the right choice for you seems obvious. So what was the purpose of starting this thread? I don't know much about the experiences you've had or the life you've led, but if you can't make a decision like this on your own, you still have some growing up to do. Nevertheless, good luck at Davis.

[Candide!]

anner:
 "And yeh, sorry, but Loyola is easier to get into.  I am not referring to the numbers, but in general. There are many many more spaces, and about the same amount of applicants."

not to rag or get swept up in details, but i just wanted to note that for 2003 Loyola recieved almost 19% more applications (818 more)for the full time program than Davis 

5199 at Loyola
4381 at Davis

Davis accepts 19%
Loyola accepts 20%


that isnt really "about the same amount of applications"

again, i am not stating that there arent people getting intop loyola and not davis, just be careful about saying misinformation...

[jdw112]

Candide!, do you know the yields for these programs?

anner:
 "And yeh, sorry, but Loyola is easier to get into.  I am not referring to the numbers, but in general. There are many many more spaces, and about the same amount of applicants."

not to rag or get swept up in details, but i just wanted to note that for 2003 Loyola recieved almost 19% more applications (818 more)for the full time program than Davis 

5199 at Loyola
4381 at Davis

Davis accepts 19%
Loyola accepts 20%


that isnt really "about the same amount of applications"

again, i am not stating that there arent people getting intop loyola and not davis, just be careful about saying misinformation...

[Candide!]

Candide!, do you know the yields for these programs?

yes, Davis has a 24% yield for 2004 (193 out of 800 accepted)

Loyola has a 34% yield for 2004 (325 out of 950 accepted)

any other questions I can answer for ya?

[Are we there yet?]

Candide!, do you know the yields for these programs?

yes, Davis has a 24% yield for 2004 (193 out of 800 accepted)

Loyola has a 34% yield for 2004 (325 out of 950 accepted)

any other questions I can answer for ya?

You must also consider that Loyola's yield was capped by limitations on class size. From what I've read, roughly 40 students were deferred from last year, which would raise the yield to roughly 38% (365 of 950), had they been able to enroll. Although it's been said that there are lies, damn lies and statistics, the numbers are what they are (and admittedly may or may not be correct).