Ave Maria: Letter -- May 2, 2005 -- ABA Full Accreditation

[---------]

It simply has a ton of support behind it, financial and otherwise.  If you can get in now vs. most 3rd/4th tier schools, I'd certainly consider it.

Yeah,really. If you have to start a law school,make sure you have one of the world's most powerful organizations behind it...like the Catholic Church.

[tacojohn]

But then people would complain about not being able to strive for their dream and it's just SO hard to get into law school and why won't anyone give them a chance.

People already complain about this, but closing down 30-40 schools would make it even worse.

I think there's probably a few schools that need to go, but to fix that, I don't see any problem with dramatically increasing the number of people at a law school.  Enrollments of 500, 650, etc.?  Come on.  I don't see how that really increases the quality of education.  Get a faculty of about 90-100 professors and get an enrollment of over 1,000.  As a matter of fact, I think that might reduce some of the competitive atmosphere, since it would temper law school's high school-feel.  You wouldn't know exactly how much everyone is studying or what jobs every person in your class got.  So the competition wouldn't be as personal.  Although you may need enrollments of around 2,000 to really see the benefit there.

[Highway]

But then people would complain about not being able to strive for their dream and it's just SO hard to get into law school and why won't anyone give them a chance.

People already complain about this, but closing down 30-40 schools would make it even worse.

The problem is that law school is too easy to get into now. Even the LSAT is pretty much of a joke, seeing as how it doesn't test anything specific that would require knowledge outside of general studies.

Hard is getting into medical school. The MCAT kicks the LSAT's butt any day of the week as far as difficulty, and the pre-reqs aren't a cakewalk either (I went to medical school - I know).

In reality, for all of the respect that law holds in our society, it's not very difficult to get accepted. That said, I'm sure it's difficult to get THROUGH law school, but pretty much anybody can get INTO law school these days. There are too many of them, and the standards are too low.

If people want to whine and cry that they aren't given an opportunity, too bad. They should work harder to EARN the opportunity. It shouldn't just be handed out because we live in a PC society these days.

[CheezWiz]

I don't know if I would be able to function there.  I don't know how I would do learning the law with supplementation from "great Catholic thinkers".  Also -- and not to be offensive I completely respect the religious beliefs and practices of others – but the robes and capes and caps scare me a bit and I get profoundly sad when I see Jesus hanging  and bleeding on the cross.  Are there any other “non-Catholics” who are/are not considering Ave Maria?


  CONGRAGIMITATIONS LANE 

[tacojohn]

But then people would complain about not being able to strive for their dream and it's just SO hard to get into law school and why won't anyone give them a chance.

People already complain about this, but closing down 30-40 schools would make it even worse.

The problem is that law school is too easy to get into now. Even the LSAT is pretty much of a joke, seeing as how it doesn't test anything specific that would require knowledge outside of general studies.

Hard is getting into medical school. The MCAT kicks the LSAT's butt any day of the week as far as difficulty, and the pre-reqs aren't a cakewalk either (I went to medical school - I know).

In reality, for all of the respect that law holds in our society, it's not very difficult to get accepted. That said, I'm sure it's difficult to get THROUGH law school, but pretty much anybody can get INTO law school these days. There are too many of them, and the standards are too low.

If people want to whine and cry that they aren't given an opportunity, too bad. They should work harder to EARN the opportunity. It shouldn't just be handed out because we live in a PC society these days.

I find that hard to believe when half the people who apply to law school don't get a single acceptance.  I'll agree that it's way too easy to get into undergrad, but law school?  Not so.  Just because the MCAT is a harder test than the LSAT doesn't mean getting in law school is a cakewalk.  Also, I think part of that is preception.  It's a more noble goal to want to be a doctor than a lawyer, so failing to get into medical school is seems like a bigger blow (to the layperson) than failing to get into law school.  I'm not saying it isn't harder to get into med school, but even if it isn't, it would probably seem that way.

[CounterPoint]

But then people would complain about not being able to strive for their dream and it's just SO hard to get into law school and why won't anyone give them a chance.

People already complain about this, but closing down 30-40 schools would make it even worse.

The problem is that law school is too easy to get into now. Even the LSAT is pretty much of a joke, seeing as how it doesn't test anything specific that would require knowledge outside of general studies.

Hard is getting into medical school. The MCAT kicks the LSAT's butt any day of the week as far as difficulty, and the pre-reqs aren't a cakewalk either (I went to medical school - I know).

In reality, for all of the respect that law holds in our society, it's not very difficult to get accepted. That said, I'm sure it's difficult to get THROUGH law school, but pretty much anybody can get INTO law school these days. There are too many of them, and the standards are too low.

If people want to whine and cry that they aren't given an opportunity, too bad. They should work harder to EARN the opportunity. It shouldn't just be handed out because we live in a PC society these days.

I find that hard to believe when half the people who apply to law school don't get a single acceptance.  I'll agree that it's way too easy to get into undergrad, but law school?  Not so.  Just because the MCAT is a harder test than the LSAT doesn't mean getting in law school is a cakewalk.  Also, I think part of that is preception.  It's a more noble goal to want to be a doctor than a lawyer, so failing to get into medical school is seems like a bigger blow (to the layperson) than failing to get into law school.  I'm not saying it isn't harder to get into med school, but even if it isn't, it would probably seem that way.

On what grounds do you determine that over 50% of people applying getting in nowhere constitutes "difficult" to get into?  45% acceptance rate of a self-selecting group of people seems like a low threshold to me.  Also, are you sure that stat is right?  I believe you just compared the number of people who take the LSAT vs. matriculate.  That's not the same thing.

[tacojohn]

On what grounds do you determine that over 50% of people applying getting in nowhere constitutes "difficult" to get into?  45% acceptance rate of a self-selecting group of people seems like a low threshold to me.  Also, are you sure that stat is right?  I believe you just compared the number of people who take the LSAT vs. matriculate.  That's not the same thing.

It's gotta be close, seeing as there are people who take multiple LSATS and people who take the LSAT and don't apply that year.

If the overall acceptance rate is less than 50%, then it is more likely that it won't happen, hence I would call it "difficult".  It is even more difficult to actually get into a school you really want to go to.

[CounterPoint]

On what grounds do you determine that over 50% of people applying getting in nowhere constitutes "difficult" to get into?  45% acceptance rate of a self-selecting group of people seems like a low threshold to me.  Also, are you sure that stat is right?  I believe you just compared the number of people who take the LSAT vs. matriculate.  That's not the same thing.

It's gotta be close, seeing as there are people who take multiple LSATS and people who take the LSAT and don't apply that year.

If the overall acceptance rate is less than 50%, then it is more likely that it won't happen, hence I would call it "difficult".  It is even more difficult to actually get into a school you really want to go to.

Boy, those are some rigorous analytical methods you're using.  I can't believe that I ever doubted you.  Carry on then John, carry on.

[Highway]

But consider how many people DO get into law school. So maybe you have 100,000 people, or more, taking the LSAT each year. I don't know how many total seats there are, but it has to be somewhere around 45,000 or more. Factor 191 (now 192) ABA schools at an average of 200 seats, many with a lot more. That's a lot of spots to fill.

I still say that it is too easy to get accepted. Maybe not to a T14, but certainly to many T3/T4 schools. People with sub 150 LSATs (or even sub 145) are going to law school. Yes, not everybody will do well on a standardized test, and they SHOULD look at more than just numbers, but if you are willing to travel, I think that almost anybody CAN get accepted into a law school somewhere. I would venture to guess that a lot of the people that don't end up in law school COULD get in somewhere if they set their sights low enough.

Law holds a certain level of prestige in our country. When you tell people you are going to law school, they think you must be very intelligent. It's a farce. Getting accepted with a 2.5 GPA and a 150 LSAT doesn't earn you the right to the praise (unless you have some outstanding soft factors).

I think the ABA and LSAC are monster money making machines that could care less about the quality of law school education, the supply and demand of jobs or anything else. They need to close some schools and raise the requirements. Otherwise, I predict that law will eventually lose the prestige factor and become akin to going for a masters.

"Oh, you're going to law school? That's nice. Couldn't find a real job?"

Just my opinion.

[CounterPoint]

As someone with an MA, who knows it's almost worthless (aside from the fact that i love the subject and enjoyed earning it) I agree.

You raise a good point too.  A lot of high-level candidates have cut-offs for themselves that stop well before the T3 i.e. there are people who apply and don't go to law school because they didn't get into a T14.  You can ridicule that level of snobbishness, however, you should remember that as a statistical factor - they didn't apply to T4 and wouldn't go there.. so people in T4's didn't beat out that 55% who didn't get in anywhere (assuming you accept that figure, which I don't).