Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: I have a dream...  (Read 8588 times)

psr13

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 412
  • Isn't my niece adorable?
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2005, 05:47:03 PM »

Where is all this disadvantage and gripe stuff coming from? This is a completely different argument for AA. I said nothing about disadvantage. Some schools may want people with different cultures because people of different cultures will contribute different opinions and see things from a different perspective.

Culture is not race. I am white. I am from the same culture as many hispanics and Asians are from. There are also a few blacks from this culture.[b] My culture is that of central Garden Grove, CA. [/b] I dod not have different morals, values, and beliefs from people that were of a different color. We pretty much were the same in those categories.

Hilarious.  :D No, seriously..haha

Please explain to me how it is hilarious. I could make it an even narrower definition of what culture I am from if it would please you.

If you really think that you share the same culture and belief systems of someone because you live in the same neighborhood then I am at a loss for even how to begin to explain this to you.  You might just have to figure this one out on your own.

Thanks. I didn't know that you were an expert on me and the place where I grew up. If you were from there you would understand what I am saying. Culture has nothing to so with one's race. Yes, the people who I grew up with had pretty much the same beliefs.

I think what BP was trying to say is that (in general) if you live in a very diverse community or city, then what you were saying could not be further from the truth.  I live in Miami.  Just because I live next to, and wor and study with, lots of Cubans, other Hispanics, Haitians, Jews, Asians, etc., doesn't mean we all have the same cultural attitiudes or traditions.  Maybe many of us will share or come to share a lot of things culturally, but our cultures still won't be the same.  Just because I speak some Spanish, am Roman Catholic, like Cuban coffee and pastelitos (especially cheese or meat; I don't care for guava at all), and know a bit about Cuban history doesn't make me Cuban.  Not by a long shot.

That's funny. You obviously know nothing of  where I come from. It is a very diverse area. And by diverse I mean that there is no majority ethnic group at all. It is pretty much 30% each for Asians, Hispanics, and Caucasions. I never said thatI was Hispani either, or Asian for that matter. Cucban is not actually a culture, it is a nationality.
"What's with today, today?"
-Lucas from "Empire Records"

psr13

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 412
  • Isn't my niece adorable?
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2005, 05:48:28 PM »
That's one thing.  How much of your community, however, was made up of people whose parents were immigrants?

Most of the people were second generation born in America. Their grandparents were the immigrants. Then again, my great-grandpa was an immigrant.
"What's with today, today?"
-Lucas from "Empire Records"

J D

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1388
  • Lust isn't one of the 7 Deadly Sins for nothing...
    • View Profile
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2005, 08:30:25 PM »
Maybe it would help us all if you would first define what you mean by "culture."

Also, you needn't be so defensive with me.  I wasn't purporting to know where you come from, nor have I implied that you must be of any ethnicity or race; I was trying to better explain what I thought BP meant by his response.

Also, Cuban (at least in my humble opinion) is both a culture and a nationality.  You could say much the same thing about French or Chinese.  Cubans have a set of ideals, mores, and norms which they value very highly, and which may (and in many cases do) differ markedly from those valued by others who come from different cultures (or nations, if you prefer).  They also have an historical experience which is quite distinct (some would even say unique) in Latin America, they use many different words than Spanish speakers in most other countries, and their cuisine is quite different from that of many other Spanish-speaking countries as well (a lot of it having to do with, or derived from the long history of African slavery and tobacco and sugar plantations that characterize the island).  They pass on these norms, these values, these preferences, etc., from one generation to the next.  That, in my view, makes a culture, albeit one that may be similar in some respects as other cultures found throughout the world.
"I never think of the future.  It comes soon enough."--Albert Einstein

_BP_

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2594
  • Think. Wait. Fast.
    • View Profile
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2005, 06:24:04 PM »
Maybe it would help us all if you would first define what you mean by "culture."

Also, you needn't be so defensive with me.  I wasn't purporting to know where you come from, nor have I implied that you must be of any ethnicity or race; I was trying to better explain what I thought BP meant by his response.

Also, Cuban (at least in my humble opinion) is both a culture and a nationality.  You could say much the same thing about French or Chinese.  Cubans have a set of ideals, mores, and norms which they value very highly, and which may (and in many cases do) differ markedly from those valued by others who come from different cultures (or nations, if you prefer).  They also have an historical experience which is quite distinct (some would even say unique) in Latin America, they use many different words than Spanish speakers in most other countries, and their cuisine is quite different from that of many other Spanish-speaking countries as well (a lot of it having to do with, or derived from the long history of African slavery and tobacco and sugar plantations that characterize the island).  They pass on these norms, these values, these preferences, etc., from one generation to the next.  That, in my view, makes a culture, albeit one that may be similar in some respects as other cultures found throughout the world.

Good post JD.  PSR13 is so bent on being defensive she does not realize that she is now starting to argue against her own premise.  First culture is defined by the place where you were raised, but now there is no cultural difference inherent in being Cuban even though these folks were raised together in the most isolated island in the Caribbean.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
1776 TO 2006

J D

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1388
  • Lust isn't one of the 7 Deadly Sins for nothing...
    • View Profile
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2005, 07:42:40 PM »
Well, it historically wasn't that isolated, at least until about 40 years ago.  ::)  And even then, a lot of other countries have had diplomatic, economic, and tourist relations with Cuba...just not the US.  I suppose one could make the argument that most of those who identify themselves as Cubans in this country aren't really Cuban, because they are second-or third-generation and thus weren't raised on the island.  I don't really agree with this.  I concede that their culture is probably so different from that found on the island that it  would be more than a little misleading to refer to it as categorically "Cuban" (in the same way that one could not say a second-generation Italian's culture is identical with that of Continental Italian culture).  But I am sure that at least some--and probably a significant number--of the traditional elements of Cuban culture remain, enough for the culture to be identified as related or derivative to the original.  There is still a significant amount of "cubanity" (to borrow a word from Spanish), which lets people from other backgrounds know where these second- and third-generation Cuban-Americans came from.  Perhaps you could fairly term it a "sub-culture" or a Cuban-American culture.  The basic point remains that it is distinct from other cultures to which these people's neighbors belong, in many ways.  Living next door to, and working with, and studying with, a Cuban or Cuban-American family doesn't necessarily mean you share the same culture.

Regarding culture, there are plenty of definitions available.  Informally, my favorite is the one that says, "Culture consists of those things you do when you don't even know you're doing anything."
"I never think of the future.  It comes soon enough."--Albert Einstein

psr13

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 412
  • Isn't my niece adorable?
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2005, 04:45:22 AM »
Maybe it would help us all if you would first define what you mean by "culture."

Also, you needn't be so defensive with me.  I wasn't purporting to know where you come from, nor have I implied that you must be of any ethnicity or race; I was trying to better explain what I thought BP meant by his response.

Also, Cuban (at least in my humble opinion) is both a culture and a nationality.  You could say much the same thing about French or Chinese.  Cubans have a set of ideals, mores, and norms which they value very highly, and which may (and in many cases do) differ markedly from those valued by others who come from different cultures (or nations, if you prefer).  They also have an historical experience which is quite distinct (some would even say unique) in Latin America, they use many different words than Spanish speakers in most other countries, and their cuisine is quite different from that of many other Spanish-speaking countries as well (a lot of it having to do with, or derived from the long history of African slavery and tobacco and sugar plantations that characterize the island).  They pass on these norms, these values, these preferences, etc., from one generation to the next.  That, in my view, makes a culture, albeit one that may be similar in some respects as other cultures found throughout the world.

Good post JD.  PSR13 is so bent on being defensive she does not realize that she is now starting to argue against her own premise.  First culture is defined by the place where you were raised, but now there is no cultural difference inherent in being Cuban even though these folks were raised together in the most isolated island in the Caribbean.

I am not bent on being defensive. Your culture has a lot to do about where you are raised. There is one huge reason why Cuban is not usually considered a culture. It is too big of an area, and there are many cultures inside of it. It would be the same as saying the American culture. There really is no American culture in the sense of culture. There are some norms, but it is not actually considered to be a culture.
"What's with today, today?"
-Lucas from "Empire Records"

Runner-up

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
    • AOL Instant Messenger - NShawcross
    • View Profile
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2005, 05:25:04 AM »
One thing I noticed growing up, even before I had any political views whatsoever, was just how extraordinarily easy it was for a white person to get accused of racism. A mere facial expression or a neutral-sounding statement can be used to paint you as a bigot. What I learned and have observed my whole adult life, is how phenomenally broad and inclusive a definition of racism we have in America.

I don't believe affirmative action is racist, but I adamantly oppose it.

At some point in the not-to-distant future, affirmative action policies should be abolished in their entirety. I don't want my children- who will be white- having to contend with a policy that seeks to remedy past discrimination that by the time they are born will be ancient history. We had these policies in place for the purposes of counter-balancing the effects of discrimination, but eventually their questionable fairness in contemporary times will have to be acknowledged.

ImVinny!

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2242
  • What am I?
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2005, 09:26:23 AM »
Amen to that!

J D

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1388
  • Lust isn't one of the 7 Deadly Sins for nothing...
    • View Profile
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2005, 03:21:34 PM »
I am not bent on being defensive. Your culture has a lot to do about where you are raised.

It does, but I think it probably has as much if not more to do with how one was raised and especially with who did the raising.  Culture, according to the vast majority of anthropologists, is all about shared values and norms.  Places do not impart values and norms; people do.  You still haven't given your definition of what exactly you mean by culture.  Unless and until you do, further discussion is meaningless, as it is very likely we will merely be arguing around or over each other's ideas, because we are probably assigning different meanings to the same word.

There is one huge reason why Cuban is not usually considered a culture.

Considered by whom?  UNESCO?  A specific anthropological theory or anthropologist?  Just you?  I think most Cubans, if not most Latinos/as or Hispanics, would strongly disagree with you or whomever it is that you are citing.  And unless you happen to have a least a master's (or better yet, a doctorate) in anthropology, and/or have completed an ethnography in or on Cuba or Cubans, you will forgive me if I am uninclined to merely take your word on something like this.  Either show me the word of someone who is more credible, or show me some credentials before you start talking about some fuzzy entity or entities who do "not usually consider[]" Cuban a culture.

It is too big of an area, and there are many cultures inside of it. It would be the same as saying the American culture. There really is no American culture in the sense of culture. There are some norms, but it is not actually considered to be a culture.

Once again, the criterion you have mentioned falls flat.  You could say much the same thing about France, Spain, Italy, China, Japan, and in fact, about most places (and their associated peoples) on Earth.  The presence of sub-cultures doesn't disporve the existence of a larger supra-culture to which those sub-cultures belong.  And the fact that there may be some regional variations in customs (things like language and vocabulary, food, dress, etc.; I think this might be what you were referring to) doesn't necessarily mean that the population doesn't share a basic cultural consensus consisting of common, shared norms and values.  All these nations have strong regional variation, probably far more vairation than can be found in Cuba (which by the way, is big for an island, but pretty small as far as population or land area is concerned when talking about countries or nations generally).  Would you also like to deny the existence of these cultures?
"I never think of the future.  It comes soon enough."--Albert Einstein

ImVinny!

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2242
  • What am I?
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: I have a dream...
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2005, 04:12:43 PM »
"is a combination of organizational history, shared experience, group expectations, unwritten or tacit rules, ethics, and social interactions that affect the behavior of everyone in the organization. Culture is developed dejure (organizational rules and pronouncements from upper management) and defacto based on shared experience. Culture is a complex social structure. We simultaneously participate in many cultures such as family, local, religious, national, and organizational. One culture may permit an action, while another forbids it.
home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/defin1.htm"


That shows that where someone lives can be their culture, even if the people are NOT the same ethnicity.