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Author Topic: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?  (Read 4252 times)

anton

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2005, 01:36:09 PM »
There are perfectly good reasons, other than wealth, to explain why Jews are seemingly overrepresented at elite institutions.  There is a great emphasis in Jewish communities on family and learning.  One of the reasons often stated for why inner city students do not do as well is that their parent(s) are working multiple jobs and cannot be around to help the child with their work.  Also, it is taught in Jewish communities that studying is not something with a start and an end, it is ongoing.  These factors, among others, explain the higher representation of Jews in elite colleges and universities

(a) Jewish people aren't "seemingly" overrepresented at elite institutions; they are objectively overrepresented at elite institutions, just as people of African or Iberian descent are objectively underrepresented.

(b) Your explanation of why Jewish people are overrepresented is, afaik, basically correct.  It's sure not the Worldwide Jewish Banking Conspiracy or pro-Jewish discrimination.  Anti-Semitism isn't dead (although it's not what it used to be either).
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Lgirl

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2005, 03:21:48 PM »
This post is ridiculuos. And the OP should be ashamed of it. Being over-represented is not an 'unflattering fact'. What is unflattering is your post, to your self-image, if you really want to know.
I understand and support the willingness to admit URMs. I don't understand the need to positively and actively limit over-represented applicants. The two do not go hand in hand. There are many reasons why Jews are over-represented. One is the culture of support for education that has been spoken about. But the reasons don't matter, anyway. No Jew has to justify to you that he is not rich or anything of the sort.
Your post doesn't even make sense. You say that over-enrollment of Jews 'vastly exaggerated caucasian numbers'. Many Jews are caucasian, so your point doesn't stand. Some people see being Jewish as a race, others a religion. There are also Jews who have converted to Judaism. I could go on and on.   
Seeing as it's so hard to prove Semitic descent etc etc, you are basically saying that we should divide everyone into sub-groups, religious and otherwise. This could go on forever.
I doubt that your 20-30% figure is accurate anyway - could you please tell me where you got it from?
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MichaelK

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2005, 03:31:07 PM »

(a) Jewish people aren't "seemingly" overrepresented at elite institutions; they are objectively overrepresented at elite institutions, just as people of African or Iberian descent are objectively underrepresented.


While I believe that this is a matter of semantics, there is more than composition of the student body versus the population as a whole.  What was the percentage of Jews or those of African or Iberian descent who applied to the school?  Of those who fall in the score range on standardized tests that the school generally accepts, what was that composition?  Based on the population as a whole, I agree that there are higher percentages of Jewish students at elite institutions than their numbers would indicate, but I feel there is more data that needs to be compiled in order to measure objective overrepresntation/underrepresentation
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anton

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2005, 04:08:05 PM »

(a) Jewish people aren't "seemingly" overrepresented at elite institutions; they are objectively overrepresented at elite institutions, just as people of African or Iberian descent are objectively underrepresented.


While I believe that this is a matter of semantics, there is more than composition of the student body versus the population as a whole.  What was the percentage of Jews or those of African or Iberian descent who applied to the school?  Of those who fall in the score range on standardized tests that the school generally accepts, what was that composition?  Based on the population as a whole, I agree that there are higher percentages of Jewish students at elite institutions than their numbers would indicate, but I feel there is more data that needs to be compiled in order to measure objective overrepresntation/underrepresentation

There isn't some "objective" sense of 'overrepresentation' that was handed down by God, but it usually means 'compared to the population as a whole', so that's what I took you to mean.  I think you're trying to define a concept that's useful to evaluating some normative construct, but in that case I'm not sure 'overrepresentation' and 'underrepresentation' are what you're going for.  The "everyday" sense of the term is useful for evaluating whether a society has successfully achieved an ideal of antiracism and some measure of distributive justice, in which case we'd see all races/ethnicities represented roughly in proportion to their representation in the general population.  It's also useful in evaluating whether institutions are "doing their part" to achieve a certain vision of "social justice" (not a concept I endorse 100%) via agressive affirmative action programs.

If what we want to figure out is whether admissions offices are discriminating against (or, implausibly, in favor of) Jewish applicants, then we run a bunch of regressions and figure out whether an individual Jewish applicant stands the same chance of being admitted as the average applicant once all the obvious nonracial/nonethnic factors are controlled for.  That's not quite the same thing as 'overrepresentation' (and it's not a definitive proof, either).
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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2005, 02:50:49 AM »
This post is ridiculuos. And the OP should be ashamed of it. Being over-represented is not an 'unflattering fact'. What is unflattering is your post, to your self-image, if you really want to know.
I understand and support the willingness to admit URMs. I don't understand the need to positively and actively limit over-represented applicants. The two do not go hand in hand. There are many reasons why Jews are over-represented. One is the culture of support for education that has been spoken about. But the reasons don't matter, anyway. No Jew has to justify to you that he is not rich or anything of the sort.
Your post doesn't even make sense. You say that over-enrollment of Jews 'vastly exaggerated caucasian numbers'. Many Jews are caucasian, so your point doesn't stand. Some people see being Jewish as a race, others a religion. There are also Jews who have converted to Judaism. I could go on and on.   
Seeing as it's so hard to prove Semitic descent etc etc, you are basically saying that we should divide everyone into sub-groups, religious and otherwise. This could go on forever.
I doubt that your 20-30% figure is accurate anyway - could you please tell me where you got it from?
I am very disappointed to see a post like this on LSD.



are jews over-represented in law school?...aye think it is a matter of perception rather than the label one chooses to put on oneself...facts vs. truth...

people who are not physically challenged are not as likely to perceive themselves as being over-represented in comparison to physically challenged people...when in fact there are less physically challenged people in law school than those who are not physically challenged.


also, in fact, the over-representation of non-physically challenged people is probably higher in ratio to physically challenged people than the representative ratio of any one cultural or religious category to any other cultural or religious category law school applicants choose to label themselves.

for the poster of this thread...

"semitic" is a passe "label"...people from israel...ethiopia...and palestine, par example were once part of a semitic speaking culture...

writing that anti-semitism is alive is about as accurate a statement as writing that the roman guard still rules egypt...

also "caucasian" is a passe "label" as well...it is funny to hear americans referring to themselves as if they are from the caucasus mts.

how many true applicants to law school in america can claim they are from the caucasus or speak circassian or georgian?

lastly, "white" is a passe "label." white is a color...and "white nationalist" describes no one. the "labeler" is someone who's image of self and others is secured within a parameter of levels..."color orientation"...in this case.

now...physically challenged law students...that is a fact of under representation in law school...


religion...color...ethnicity. ..race...these are subjective human perceptions...and an "un-fixed perception."

physical challenge...that is objective human perception...and a "fixed perception."


off topic but important...race is a "cognitive delusion of our era."
 

/0x.0.[$+@

aye think the subject of this thread was meant to be "ironic" in some sense.
interesting to see how folks react.
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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2005, 01:45:06 AM »
While Jews only constitute 2% of America's population, they make up 20% - 30% of all Ivey League and top tier institutions. The fact that they do not have a check box for their Semitic race forces them to check white. This hides their extreme overepresenation, and vastly exagerrates the actual caucausian enrollment numbers. Alas, this change is unlikely to happen, since anyone who points out unflattering facts about Jews is labelled an anti-Semite, which is the most damning term in our society.

What's unflattering about making it into the upper echelons of society?


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If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
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ImVinny!

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2005, 01:24:27 PM »
I think they should jsut get rid of the box and have people getin based on merit, ya know? Merit is what should count most ,and then I think it evens self out anyways.

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2005, 01:26:10 PM »
wait... so would everyone else then be anti-semetic?
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ImVinny!

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2005, 01:27:15 PM »
Apparently anyone who uses the ord "jew"is anti-semetic for some people

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Re: Should there be a Semitic category on applications for Jews?
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2005, 08:54:19 PM »
Apparently anyone who uses the ord "jew"is anti-semetic for some people

Actually, you have that backwards.  Jew is the correct term (because it is a noun-- you say "He is a Jew", just like you say "He is a child.") 

Some people take offense to the word "Jewish," however, because it is an adjective.

(IE "He is Jewish" is grammatically on par with "He is childish"--which is not nearly the same thing as saying "He is a Jew" or "He is a child".)  The grammar makes someone a stereotype, not a person.

Make sense?