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Author Topic: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions  (Read 10988 times)

Sosua

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2004, 04:08:15 PM »
If we change ourselves in order to beat the terrorists, they have won.  During WWII, our captives were astounded by how well they were treated, and they were converted to support democracies, because they saw how one was run.

The war on terror is not a military struggle or a legal conflict.  This is a political struggle for the hearts or minds.  If we keep fighting the wrong battles, all we will do is recruit more enemies.

jgruber

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2004, 04:09:29 PM »
Hear, hear.  If you have doubts, read your history.  We are repeating a cycle.

If we change ourselves in order to beat the terrorists, they have won.  During WWII, our captives were astounded by how well they were treated, and they were converted to support democracies, because they saw how one was run.

The war on terror is not a military struggle or a legal conflict.  This is a political struggle for the hearts or minds.  If we keep fighting the wrong battles, all we will do is recruit more enemies.

bobfett33

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2004, 07:20:19 PM »
I'm tired of seeing people want to fight the war on terror through the court system. That is what is going to get this country destroyed.

Oh, boy oh boy oh boy. 

First of all, terrorism can NOT be stopped by armies marching.  The only way to stop terrorism is by #1) using dedicated policework to track terrorists down and bring them to legitimate, lawful justice, and #2) eliminating the root causes of terrorism. 

Two years ago, I was at a lecture given by one of the former U.S. ambassadors to Iraq, before April Glaspie.  And, on the subject of terrorism (specifically with reference to Israel and the Palestinian Territories), he said that the problem of terrorism is basically a math problem.  To paraphrase, he said:

"The Israelis think that if you have ten terrorists and you kill five, you only have five left.  But, the Palestinians know that if you have ten terrorists, and the Israelis kill five, tomorrow there will be twenty-five." 

This is likely due in large part to the fact that when the Israelis and the Americans go after terrorists, they commonly kill dozens, if not hundreds or thousands, of innocent civilians.  And that PISSES PEOPLE OFF.

sarmstrong806

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2004, 09:17:54 PM »
I'm tired of seeing people want to fight the war on terror through the court system. That is what is going to get this country destroyed.
"The Israelis think that if you have ten terrorists and you kill five, you only have five left.  But, the Palestinians know that if you have ten terrorists, and the Israelis kill five, tomorrow there will be twenty-five." 

So I guess we should go back to not killing terrorists and hope that law enforcement catches them before they strike again? Why do people continue to think that somehow they can be appeased. And your version of bringing them to justice is stupid. The best way is through the military, because instead of arresting them, they put a bullet in their head, I find this more effective than having trials in which wacko liberals will ensure fair treatment.

The other arguement you make about the "root" cause seems to be popular among people who would like to let terrorists dictate our foreign policy. I highly doubt if we quit supporting Israel, and pulled our troops out of whatever shithole camel rider country they wanted, the terrorists would cease wanting to kill us.

Thank God we have a President who is willing to take this on, not creating a country sitting and waiting on the defensive, hoping the CIA will catch someone before they blow up my family.

bobfett33

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2004, 04:29:10 AM »
Sorry, buddy - with regard to your family's house being blown up, I think that the chances of that are ever-increasing.  And, furthermore, you're a little off base saying that the terrorists will end up dictating our foreign policy.  I'm not a terrorist, but I can tell you that I have never been so sure of anything in my life than the fact that the foreign policy of the United States is, in many regards, purely evil, utterly immoral, unconscionable.  I will spend my entire life doing whatever is necessary to stop the U.S's wanton disregard for human life which - it can not be said enough - is EVIL.  I will even die to this end, if my death would somehow do more good for the pursuit of this goal than my life.

The more of the truth I know, the more utterly and wholly opposed I am.  And, this holds true for almost everyone I know - the truth is a revolting one.  Long live true freedom and true justice, and may death come just as swiftly to those who purvey inequity and injustice under the guise of righteousness as it does to those who openly fight against freedom and justice.

Sosua

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2004, 09:55:54 AM »
If we really wanted to beat terrorism we should have done the following:

Spend the 87 billion, the 25 billion, and the other hundreds of billion we spent on Iraq on education in the Arab world.  Set up elementary schools and universities to promote our worldview.  At the same time, give some local control of the schools.  Allow one of the "nice" schools of Islamic law (Hanafi, Hanabali) to be taught.  Promote these schools from behind the scenes and attack the Wahabi school of law.  Secretly fund "nice" Islamic seminaries to help them push Islamic scholarship into a democratic frame of mind.  Push the "umma" as a concept.

Actually promote democratic change.  Start with the small gulf states.  Qatar (or maybe it was Baharain) has a prince that really wants democracy.  Help him out.  Lebanon also might work; it was a functioning democracy for a number of years several decades ago.

Increase our intelligence contacts with the Arab States.  Terrorism is more of a threat to them than it is to us.  Their overthrow is the final goal of Islamic fundimentalism.  Let them do our dirty work and hunt and kill the current terrorists.

Use our military only when its really nessicary (Afghanistan).  Don't let it get sidetracked (Iraq).

Finally, and most importantly, fix the Israel/Palestine mess.  I love Israel, but it's turning into an apartheid state.  Strongarm them into accepting the only peace deal that will ever work:  withdrawal from the occupied territories in exchange for the abandoning of the Palestinan right to return.  Isreal needs to do this before it becomes a majority Palestinian state sometime in the near future.  We could garuntee their security by plunking 10k american troops in Israel.  Watch Hamas wither as the Palestinian state cracks down on them.  No one likes random guys running around with guns.


sarmstrong806

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2004, 12:14:01 AM »
I will spend my entire life doing whatever is necessary to stop the U.S's wanton disregard for human life which - it can not be said enough - is EVIL.  I will even die to this end, if my death would somehow do more good for the pursuit of this goal than my life.

Well then you should probably go down to your local Al-Queda recruitment office, they would be glad to see you share their sentiments.

Go chain yourself to some World Bank or IMF building or something.

jgruber

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2004, 09:25:09 AM »
I think you missed the point.  It is the disregard for human life that he is criticizing.  Why would joining Al Quaeda be any better?  Going from one we-can-take-human-life-to-serve-our-political-goals organization to another to fight the disregard for human life?

Why do people assume that everyone who disagrees with the war in Iraq and similar efforts is endorsing terrorism?  They are both extremes.  There is middle ground ya know

I will spend my entire life doing whatever is necessary tk o stop the U.S's wanton disregard for human life which - it can not be said enough - is EVIL.  I will even die to this end, if my death would somehow do more good for the pursuit of this goal than my life.

Well then you should probably go down to your local Al-Queda recruitment office, they would be glad to see you share their sentiments.

Go chain yourself to some World Bank or IMF building or something.


sarmstrong806

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2004, 11:59:01 AM »
I think you missed the point.  It is the disregard for human life that he is criticizing.  Why would joining Al Quaeda be any better?  Going from one we-can-take-human-life-to-serve-our-political-goals organization to another to fight the disregard for human life?

We go to great lengths to avoid loss of innocent lives, where as terrorists go to great lengths to destroy innocent lives, I can't see the comparison.

jgruber

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Re: The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2004, 12:02:30 PM »
We go to great lengths to avoid loss of innocent lives, where as terrorists go to great lengths to destroy innocent lives, I can't see the comparison.

Unfortunatley, we can't prove or disprove this assertion