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Author Topic: Planet Law School II  (Read 5803 times)

DodgerLaw

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2005, 12:10:34 AM »
I already joined the Yahoo group. And if you go back aways, i was actually defending RAM and telling someone else not to call him/her dense. Then s/he comes up with calling me dense, and s/he didn't even get the point of the posts i was making, so...anyway

Didn't i say i wasn't going to say anymore?

Just when I thought I was out...They pulled me back in. ::)

Okay, Ragnar. Peace. DodgerLaw extends hand of friendship.

ram0036

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2005, 12:26:34 AM »
Oh no, I wasn't saying that you were dense I was responding to the person who said I was dense.  All I was saying was be wary of any book that tells you to do anything.  I am just not terribly worried about it right now though that may change come august.  I just think that these law school boot camps prey upon the insecurities of 1l students.  But I will order the book into my store and take a look at it and go from there.  I have read several books on law school and really liked law school confidential and the complete law school companion and really liked them both.

Bahamut

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2005, 01:00:31 AM »
Oh no, I wasn't saying that you were dense I was responding to the person who said I was dense.  All I was saying was be wary of any book that tells you to do anything.  I am just not terribly worried about it right now though that may change come august.  I just think that these law school boot camps prey upon the insecurities of 1l students.  But I will order the book into my store and take a look at it and go from there.  I have read several books on law school and really liked law school confidential and the complete law school companion and really liked them both.

Law School Confidential is a load of horse$hit. I understand being wary about simply following what a book has to say, but I'm telling you - READ THE BOOK. And when you do, you WILL want to buy the primers/prep books. I'm telling you.
SMU Fall '05

littletanuki

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2005, 01:06:42 AM »
So, to my fellow preppers, i say - just chill and go underground. You're not going to change any hearts and minds. And, if the prepping strategy is the right way to go, why would you *want* to change any hearts and minds?

I originally posted my feelings about PLSII in the hopes that the OP would give it a chance and not be scared into inaction by the book.  I wanted to share the discovery so to speak, as PLSII seriously helped mitigate my own anxiety about law school...(though given the competitive nature of law school and the forced curve, my own purposes of getting top grades would probably have been better served by keeping my trap shut!)  Having accomplish my original goal, I am henceforth going "underground."  (*nods to BigTex*) 

ram0036

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2005, 01:08:24 AM »
Oh I plan on checking it out from where I work just to see what everyone is talking about.  I was under the impression that this post was about attending some kind of law school boot camp as opposed to buying prep materials and if I missed the point of this discussion then I apologize.  I plan to start by reading 1l by scott turow and going from there.  I also liked letters to a young lawyer by Alan Dershowitz.

ram0036

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2005, 03:04:18 AM »
though with a name like atticus falcon how could you go wrong?  :P

Wills69ss

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2005, 03:10:21 AM »
OK, first of all a little background.

I am a third year senior at UC Berkeley. My gpa is a 3.77, LSAT 164. I will be attending UCLA law school in the fall.

I went to the bookstore one saturday and looked through several "soon to be law students" type books. I read all the big name ones and then came across PLS II. I saw this mammoth thing, over 800 pages, and thought what the hell can you say about law school in 800 pages? So I picked it up and couldn't put it down.

Heres my take, he's right.

Now before you all start bashing me for supporting such a statement hear me out.

Before I went looking for books I talked to many current law students (at Boalt)> I grilled them about law school life, asking about exams, assignments, papers, and the like. My major, Legal Studies, has its sections taught by GSI's, all of whom are law students, so I've talked to my fair share. Most of them said the same things, you can't prep, there's no way to learn what you need to learn, just relax your summer before, they teach you what you need to know. So I visited law classes. They usually don't care if you slide into the back row in a first year class, its easy to get lost. So I sat and listend and took in all I could. I found the discussions about cases fun and interesting, not wanting to wait any longer to get there.

I also have access to the law library. Since I'm writing an honors thesis, I get to roam around all I want. I found the old exams.

There was no mention of cases whatsoever. No reference to case citations, who wrote the majority opinion, what was the holding in X v Y, etc. . .

It was a standard hypo, just like in the Aspen E&E series (I know because I have them).

Here's my take on the law students, they have not read PLS, or have they been introduced to it. They have bought into the idea (much like some of you) that there is no way to prep. Maybe they did well, maybe they didn't (if you expect a law student to tell you their "real grades" your kidding yourself) the point is what if Atticus is right?
What if there's a way to prep for law school, what if the Aspen E&E series teaches you how to spot the issues and/or the tensions of law?
What if he's right about most law school professors? What if they do play "hide the ball?" What if they don't teach you the elements of black letter law that are essential to examanship?

Im not trying to scare you, nor am I trying to create something of a conspiracy theory about law school, just do me this favor: go to a law school, any law school, sit in on a class, then find old exams and figure out if what you heard had anything to do with whats on the exam. In most cases, there's nothing that resembles what was said in class.

Most of us are used to undergrad where professors tell you what to read, give you some form of a study guide, and then test on what they covered in class as well as the readings.

Law school is not like undergrad. Law school is a game. A game that rewards those who can figure out the game the quickest and then kick ass and take names on the final. The professors are in on it, the students are in on it, the administration is in on it, because no one is going to hold your hand and tell you what to do. No one is going to tell you what you need to know. No one is going to tell you that success on exams depends on your ability to disect a hypothetical "case" finding the tensions from your knowledge of BLL, using commercial outlines to suppliment your own personal outline, and your constant practice of hypos through the aspen series and your study group. Its not memorization like undergrad, there's no formula like math or science, no expert opinion by the leading author on political theory, its the long established codified rules through things like the UCC, legislation, and case law. This is what BLL is. A set of guidelines that help lawyers, judges, and jurists try to apply a broad, open ended guidelines to specific problems and circumstances. There is no "right" answer, the analysis is the answer. Of course when you're being paid to take a side, there is a right answer, but in law school there's not, you spot the issues and discuss the tensions. Those who spot the most issues, discuss the tensions completely, get the best grades. They make law review, they transfer to Harvard, and they get the kick ass jobs at big firms that most law students covet so dearly (this is another bad thing, but thats another posting). THe aspens teach you how to spot the issues, they give you BLL, then give you a hypo, and then ask you to apply the BLL to the scenario. This is the exact same thing as a law school exam, although teachers do not give you BLL.

Well then why can't you just get the commercial outlines, the aspen series, etc. . .in the school year and learn it then?

Yeah, ok, then add reading for class, trying to prepare to get grilled by a professor about some random case, writing assignments, etc. . .all while trying to go through a 700 page book (the aspen) at the same time. Not going to happnen.

So when do you learn BLL? The answer is you dont, you struggle to keep up. While the professor is asking you questions about adverse possesion in a squatters rights case, grilling you about the elements that your suppose to learn from only one case (that probably deals with only one issue or tension of the law, i.e one element of BLL associated with adverse possesion) your going to look like an idiot. (remember Hart in The Paper Chase?)

Think about it, wouldnt it be nice if when the professor is getting into a discussion about adverse possession you know exactly what he's talking about? That you read the case beforehand, That you already know its a process by which a person who uses property for a statutorily determined period of time becomes the owner of the property and defeats all rights of the person with legal or record title. So you review your hypos from the aspens Property book, you reinforce what the elements are so they are fresh in your mind for class. Furthermore, you have worked extensive hypos solidifying the elements (BLL) in your memory and could provide a thorough analysis when the professor changes an element that negates such a claim (because while doing one of the hypos, you learned the trick that the professor is using was an issue you missed in the practice problems and learned your lesson the first time) How cool would that be? How much more enjoyeable would law school be than the constant grilling you would have received while looking like an idiot?

Here's my final thoughts, don't take my word for it, don't take these postings word for it, don't take atticus's word for it, go figure it out for yourself. How you might ask? Go to a law school, go to the bookstore, look at a casebook, read a case or two or seven. Then find some old exams. Then try and figure out why it seems that the cases inadequately would prepare you for exams, then think to yourself what could help me tackle this problem? Well first off you need to know the rules (BLL), then you need to know how to apply them (a strong lawyerlike analysis) and then you need to be able to spot the hidden issues and tensions that the professor diliberately put on the exam (here my friend is the promise land to points, points, and more points on an exam). What if there was a way to teach you this? What if the only way to do this is the summer beforehand because once you get there you are bombarded with busywork? What if?

He's right, he's been to law school, take a look at the yahoo group, take a look at the book. This is the difference between the haves and the have nots. The haves dont listen to anyone, they investigate the process themselves (you can go to Boalt's website to get the exams, free of charge no less) and they come up with their own conclusions. The have nots listen to others, they take someone elses advice, they decide not to prep, they believe law school students and professors believing that they will hold your hand during law school, they think that the cases will teach them, they believe that briefing cases is the way to aviod looking like an idiot, and they believe that they are smart enough to figure out the system.

Of course prepping is alot of work. Of course it will eat up your summer, of course you will get fustrated at the hypos. Most of you are discussing this beacuse you want to do well in law school.

Think about it, which student would you rather be? The one who looks like and idiot? Or the one who just knocked the socks off the professor because they've seen the rabbit in the hat trick before, and they are not going to be fooled again.

It's your choice. I've left a ton of information out of here, alot of investigation in ensuring the legitimacy of what's been said. If you have any questions feel free to email me at Wills69ss@berkeley.edu. I will be happy to answer them. If you think I'm wrong hey thats cool, I could care less, but please, don't be left in the dark, check it out yourself, look at the old exams on Boalts website, look at casebooks, visit classes, and then see how "wrong" I am.


alphalyrae

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2005, 03:23:56 AM »
I think if some people spent half the time reading up on basic legal principles that they spend bickering on LSD they'd all be on law review.
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DodgerLaw

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2005, 05:34:31 AM »
Amybody else notice that very often when somebody writes a long-winded post supporting something about which there is a potential monetary interest that somebody is a newbie?




DodgerLaw

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Re: Planet Law School II
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2005, 05:55:23 AM »
I want to prep for law school. I'm dying for law school to start. I wish I could go tomorrow. I went out seeking way to prepare for law school. I bought PLS, Law School Confidential, and OneL. I think PLS is an interesting book.

However (the big BUT), I spoke to a number of people who assure me that there really is very little one can do to effectively prepare for law school

One of the people I spoke to is my brother who graduated from NYU four years ago, clerked for a federal judge, and works for BIGLAW in L.A. I think that is a pretty darned good source of info. He said that about the only thing I could do to prep that wouldn't be at best a very ineffectual use of time is to work on my typing and related skills and maybe read a couple of books on the historical and philosophical underpinnings of the law. I haven't asked him what he thinks about BARBRI yet, but I will soon because as I say I am hot to do anything I can to prepare for LS.

To those of you who chose to follow the PLS plan, I wish you the best. But there is a lot of reason to believe that all your prep will go for naught, and may even lead to burnout.