Law School Discussion

tell me, tell me, tell me

exposé

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Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2005, 02:44:01 PM »
I'm sure that no ethical lawyer would just write up an affidavit and have his client sign it. 

Of one thing I can assure you...lawyers do this ALL the time (I mean, write affidavits and tell the witness "If you agree with this, sign it."  It's based on their "interpretation" of the facts yet their (the lawyers') wording.  This is indeed "real world" and thanks for making it even more apropos.

EPH05

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2005, 06:07:04 PM »
     Wanderer, in saying that "no ethical lawyer would just..." I was making the point that no lawyer would make up a story for his client etc., not that they wouldn't advise and compose the afadavit.  I thought I made that clear, but apparantly not, unless you support perjury which I'm sure you don't. 

     More importantly though you do understand the difference between the lawyer example and the letter of reccomendation, right?  They're not at all the same.  I've explained why multiple times and I've included others explanations, so if you're still not getting it I really just don't know what to say.  These "real world" examples that have been used are just about worthless, I have no idea why people keep mentioning them.

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2005, 06:30:22 PM »
PLEASE!!!! i just read all the posts on this and my head hurts the big one!!!! LISTEN:  if your recommender actually signs the letter, he's attesting to what you're saying about your relationship.  what's the freakin' problem here?

to the person who is DRAFTING the letter:  make sure it's clean.  by that, i mean, you want it to be an accurate dipiction of your relationship, it's grammatically correct, and you're filling all those gaps that the admin people want to know about.

end of story!  unethical indeed!!!

you think, as an attorney, when you prepare a pleading for a client you're doing something unethical?????

come on guys, let's grow up here.

exposé

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Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2005, 06:34:32 PM »
     Wanderer, in saying that "no ethical lawyer would just..." I was making the point that no lawyer would make up a story for his client etc., not that they wouldn't advise and compose the afadavit.  I thought I made that clear, but apparantly not, unless you support perjury which I'm sure you don't. 

     More importantly though you do understand the difference between the lawyer example and the letter of reccomendation, right?  They're not at all the same.  I've explained why multiple times and I've included others explanations, so if you're still not getting it I really just don't know what to say.  These "real world" examples that have been used are just about worthless, I have no idea why people keep mentioning them.

Nah, I think it's pretty analogous, and I'm sorry you do not recognize the simple analogy.  And, dude?  If the real world is "worthless" to you, then that's a whole other matter.  I've got a number you can call for that. ;)  

ccorsi

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2005, 07:43:06 PM »
Bottom line:  EPH - remove the stick from you know where and relax.

Obviously you do NOT like the practice and should not partipate in it.  That, however, does not make said practice unethical or unwise - just because you don't like it.

C2

The Federal Farmer

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2005, 07:53:23 PM »
What it boils down to is this:

Your boss told you to write your own letter of recommendation.  Then write it.  There is nothing unethical about it and make yourself look like the second coming.  Most people will tell you its wrong but I guarentee that if others had the opportunity they would be estatic to have this opportunity.  I truly believe in doing what you need to do to get ahead.  Take Ritalin for the LSAT, do anything and everything to give yourself an edge and put yourself above the competition.  Step on anyone in your way because in all honesty, and I mean this in the nicest way, no cares about you.  So do what you need to do in life to get to the top and enjoy.  Good luck!

EPH05

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2005, 07:54:25 PM »
Am I not being clear or are you not reading my posts?

1) It is not unethical to prepare a pleading, it is unethical to make up the "intellectual core" of the client’s statement.  Refining and typing up the "core" of the client's statement is fine so long as you remain true to that "core."

2) The "core" of the LOR is the relationship between the recommender and the applicant and how that relationship reflects the applicant's merits.  If the applicant writes up the letter, even if it is factually correct the recommender-applicant relationship is skewed.  The applicant can never perfectly replicate the exact feelings, words and emotions that the recommender has towards him or her.  Moreover, by even claiming that the recommender wrote the letter when actually it was the applicant, the applicant is deceiving the admissions office of the actual recommender-applicant relationship.  Even if the recommender signs the letter, the letter's ideas didn't originate in his or her head as the admissions offices expected, and this means the letter's weight is undermined in their minds.

3) The real world is not of itself useless, nor are "real world" analogies necessarily useless to this argument.  However, the "real world" analogies offered up so far are not useful.  The reason for this is explained above.

4) I still just don't understand what the problem is here.  I admit that I may have not explained this clearly, but I thought the Kaplan excerpt in an earlier post was pretty clear and it reflected my exact arguments.

5) I notice that no one has even tried to tell me that admissions offices themselves think this is an acceptable practice.  In the end of the day they're the ones that matter if you're trying to get into law school, and as such I it makes this whole debate a pretty open and shut case.

6) This matters because its unfair to other applicants, and it matters because ethics are so important in our society.

kristay

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2005, 07:56:04 PM »
5) I notice that no one has even tried to tell me that admissions offices themselves think this is an acceptable practice.  In the end of the day they're the ones that matter if you're trying to get into law school, and as such I it makes this whole debate a pretty open and shut case.


Actually, I did.

The Federal Farmer

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2005, 08:00:20 PM »
Screw addmissions offices, LSAC, and whoever else.  They made this a cut throat process.  Do what you need to do, within the law of course, to get to where you want to be.  IF you don't someone else will and you will be on the outside looking in.

EPH05

Re: tell me, tell me, tell me
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2005, 08:04:11 PM »
5) I notice that no one has even tried to tell me that admissions offices themselves think this is an acceptable practice.  In the end of the day they're the ones that matter if you're trying to get into law school, and as such I it makes this whole debate a pretty open and shut case.


Actually, I did.

You quoted a law professor who may have been on an admissions committee, but you didn't in anyway attempted to prove that this was a generally accepted practice according to admissions offices themselves.  Yes, one somewhat relevant person thinks it is acceptable, but what schools accept this as policy?  Certainly none of the schools that encouraged applicants to waive access to their LORs (everyone I applied to).  To my knowledge and assumably to Kaplan-Newsweek’s knowledge this is a strictly forbidden practice to law school admissions offices.