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Author Topic: Where should I go?  (Read 2976 times)

VivaLaMuerte

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2005, 01:28:16 PM »
SGY:

Your concerns are probably well-founded.  You might reconsider your approach in expressing them, though.  Since you wondered about getting a certain view across to others, I'll suggest a view slight ameliorations to your approach.

Consider less moralizing; it almost never works.  The reason for this is that people don't like to be told what to do.  Yes, people respond to appeals to their moral sensibility, but they don't appeal to claims about "true suffering" (whatever that is) and extreme guilt inducing (you could have fed a starving child!).  By the way, the example of yours that I bring up is also somewhat ill-founded.  It is not by any means clear that giving $20 to a starving child in africa is the most moral option, assuming a very consequentialist outlook.  The reasons for this are complicated, as are the moral considerations involved.  The point of my mentioning this, however, is that your bold assertions, however well-intentioned they may be, are also likely to be ill-received, and possibly counter-productive.  Psychologists called "reactance" when referring to this not-so-strange phenomenon: overextending some appeal to authority or overpunishing an act is likely to intensify the behavior in question, or at least decrease the likelihood of behavioral modification (which, again, was your expressed intent, in addition to moralizing).

Does that make much sense?  


AndyJay

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2005, 01:31:42 PM »
Good point viva.

ilsox7

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2005, 01:38:35 PM »
I agree with a lot of what Viva says.  I also think that part of the issue is that SGY refers to suffering in the 3rd world and how it is unjust for people to spend 2 grand on law school applications and that he is poor and will complain til he is blue in the face about it, all the while he is typing that from a laptop that probably cost him around $1,000 AND going to law school this fall.  While I respect that you may not have grown up with family wealth, and may not be wealthy now, you are obviously doing well enough to afford that laptop and have the chance to go to law school. 

So I do not think it is appropriate for you to argue that someone should not spend 2 grand on applications b/c of poor people in 3rd world countries when I could say that you should not buy a laptop b/c that money could be used to feed poor people in 3rd world countries.  See what I mean?  I'm not trying to be an ass, but what you're doing with that argument is fairly hypocritical.

VivaLaMuerte

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2005, 01:46:54 PM »
Just so it is clear, I was not taking a side in this debate, I just wanted to offer SGY advice as a sidenote. 

If this turns into a debate about the merits of Pittsburgh, though, I will jump in a defend just about everything SGY has to say.  :)

ilsox7

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2005, 01:50:48 PM »
Just so it is clear, I was not taking a side in this debate, I just wanted to offer SGY advice as a sidenote. 

If this turns into a debate about the merits of Pittsburgh, though, I will jump in a defend just about everything SGY has to say.  :)

Just so it's clear from my side, I am totally jaded by my time spent in corporate america and most of my comments are probably viewed as cynical.  I tend to think it's just reality, which unfortunately can be sad at many times.

fliingdutchmn

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2005, 01:54:38 PM »
The point of my mentioning this, however, is that your bold assertions, however well-intentioned they may be, are also likely to be ill-received, and possibly counter-productive[...]Does that make much sense? 

Of course this makes sense.  Inciting 'reactance' in others is a sure way to ruin the rhetorical force of your argument, by making the target audience less suceseptible to the absolute merits of your point.  In this regard, I could tell you that while your parents couldn't afford to loan you a few thousand, I grew up without parents.  Therefore you are too privileged to make any indignant comments at all!

The indignant one's zero-sum reasoning is also jejune.  A dollar spent on an LSDAS report is not a dollar removed from OXFAM's budget.

While assaulting others in moral high dudgeon may appeal to you a a 'f*cking complainer,' it isn't winning any hearts or convincing any minds.

AndyJay

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2005, 01:59:23 PM »
Yeah. At some point there was a discussion going on about Pittsburgh before someone liked law school applications to third world hunger...

ilsox7

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2005, 02:00:27 PM »
For those like me who had never heard of the word 'jejune':

je·june   Audio pronunciation of "jejune" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (j-jn)
adj.

   1. Not interesting; dull: “and there pour forth jejune words and useless empty phrases” (Anthony Trollope).
   2. Lacking maturity; childish: surprised by their jejune responses to our problems.
   3. Lacking in nutrition: a jejune diet.
 ;D

VivaLaMuerte

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2005, 02:03:24 PM »
I had heard of it, but I was just about to post how it won the debate, no matter what the position defended.  Using jejune is comparable to saying "no offense, but."  Whatever follows (be it logically or however else) is acceptable.

A decent band is named jejune.  or am I think of the jazz june?  or both?

ilsox7

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Re: Where should I go?
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2005, 02:04:59 PM »
I had heard of it, but I was just about to post how it won the debate, no matter what the position defended.  Using jejune is comparable to saying "no offense, but."  Whatever follows (be it logically or however else) is acceptable.

A decent band is named jejune.  or am I think of the jazz june?  or both?

Needless to say, I will be using jejune in excess the next few weeks, because I can.