Anybody Know Anything About U. Dayton Law School?

[emtjp1028]

I know I said I was done commenting and seriously, I'm not here to squabble anymore.  I agree that people with a 2.5GPA and 145 on the LSAT should'nt make it into law school.  There is no doubt about that.  But by suggesting that T3's and T4's be shut down, then someone like me who had a 3.6 GPA, graduated magna cum and only managed a 152 on the LSAT because I couldnt afford to take a prep class, would be shut out of law school.  

Okay, well maybe not completely shut out.  I got into 1 or 2 T2's but they were so far out in the mid-west that I really had no interest in attending.  But back to the subject, there are some intelligent people who attend T3's and T4's for whatever reason and simply shutting them down would do nothing to correct the situation.

[RockinJay]

I see your point, but you're basing one's success on 2.5/145?  I graduated college with only a 3.30 and a 147 on the LSAT.  But I graduated cum laude, National Honor's Society, summa cum laude from NYU (MPA), worked as a director for a US Senator for 2 years, over 4 years of working in BigLaw as a project manager/senior paralegal, speak three languages , lived overseas and I can eat a whole pizza in about 10 minutes (hehehe). 

Because of my atrocious LSAT score, which will limit me to a T3/T4 school, should I be shut out of a legal education?  Will everything I accomplished in life be totally negated because of a 3 hour exam?  Does my low LSAT score, and ultimately T3/T4 education, define my abilities and capability to achieve success?

I am the first to admit that attending a T3/T4 poses obstacles, but what the hell in life doesn't?  And by the way, I have worked with plenty of T3/T4 grads and laterals at BigLaw (i.e. Skadden and Cadwalader). 

I think proposing to wipe out the T3/T4's is absolutely asinine and only reflects how deeply entrenched elitism is in our profession.

[jack24]

This is an interesting debate.  I don't think we need to get rid of T4 law schools, but we need to make sure people have good information.  
Does cooley suck because the students that go there suck?  Or would cooley suck no matter what?  If cooley would suck no matter what then maybe we have a problem, but I don't think that is the case.  A brilliant student could probably get a good legal education from 99% of law schools.

The truth is, even stupid lawyers aren't really that stupid.  They know that 150k in debt is hard to pay off when they make 42k a year.  They can go to law school if they want and that shouldn't bother anyone all that much.  
LSAC should just make sure that people realize when the median income is 72k, that means 50% of students make less than that.   LSAC should also try to show the correlation between school ranking and earning potential.

[Prize Fight Promoter]

Are you new to this board?  Yes all graduates have debt but unlike lawyers at lowly law schools, dentists, doctors, pharmacists, and chiropractors all pay off their debt like nothing because these occupations are IN DEMAND because their governing body ensures they are IN DEMAND.  If there were 11 dental schools in FL like there are law schools, there would be underqualified, broke, unemployed dentists out there.  But there isn't.  There's only 2.  Good job American Dental Education Association.  You can trash the analogy all you want but everyone needs a dentist and 9 more schools in one state all with much larger student bodies is a joke. 

I can't go fishing around LSD to find some of the dozens of articles posted by apprehensive t4 people that cry about others' life failures mainly because I'm not great with computers and I don't know how.

This argument is a simple one.  If there are tons of unemployed lawyers out there, that means too many are being produced.  Lets start from the bottom.  Goodbye Cooley.  Goodbye U of DC.  Goodbye St. Thomas Miami, and so on.

It is not even impressive to say you are a lawyer anymore.  Why?  Because everyone you tell you are a lawyer will have a brother-in-law that went to a crap law school and everyone knows he's a moron.

[xdhbc]

Are you new to this board?  Yes all graduates have debt but unlike lawyers at lowly law schools, dentists, doctors, pharmacists, and chiropractors all pay off their debt like nothing because these occupations are IN DEMAND because their governing body ensures they are IN DEMAND.  If there were 11 dental schools in FL like there are law schools, there would be underqualified, broke, unemployed dentists out there.  But there isn't.  There's only 2.  Good job American Dental Education Association.  You can trash the analogy all you want but everyone needs a dentist and 9 more schools in one state all with much larger student bodies is a joke. 

I can't go fishing around LSD to find some of the dozens of articles posted by apprehensive t4 people that cry about others' life failures mainly because I'm not great with computers and I don't know how.

This argument is a simple one.  If there are tons of unemployed lawyers out there, that means too many are being produced.  Lets start from the bottom.  Goodbye Cooley.  Goodbye U of DC.  Goodbye St. Thomas Miami, and so on.

It is not even impressive to say you are a lawyer anymore.  Why?  Because everyone you tell you are a lawyer will have a brother-in-law that went to a crap law school and everyone knows he's a moron.

Again, if the problem is graduates with debt who are unable to find jobs, perhaps reducing the debt burden would be a way to fight the problem.

As for reducing the supply of lawyers, I don't have a problem with that.  I'm merely curious as to how people would draw the line between schools that should stay and schools that should go.

[jack24]

Are you new to this board?  Yes all graduates have debt but unlike lawyers at lowly law schools, dentists, doctors, pharmacists, and chiropractors all pay off their debt like nothing because these occupations are IN DEMAND because their governing body ensures they are IN DEMAND.  If there were 11 dental schools in FL like there are law schools, there would be underqualified, broke, unemployed dentists out there.  But there isn't.  There's only 2.  Good job American Dental Education Association.  You can trash the analogy all you want but everyone needs a dentist and 9 more schools in one state all with much larger student bodies is a joke. 

I can't go fishing around LSD to find some of the dozens of articles posted by apprehensive t4 people that cry about others' life failures mainly because I'm not great with computers and I don't know how.

This argument is a simple one.  If there are tons of unemployed lawyers out there, that means too many are being produced.  Lets start from the bottom.  Goodbye Cooley.  Goodbye U of DC.  Goodbye St. Thomas Miami, and so on.

It is not even impressive to say you are a lawyer anymore.  Why?  Because everyone you tell you are a lawyer will have a brother-in-law that went to a crap law school and everyone knows he's a moron.

Was this in response to my post?

There are a ton of crappy salespeople, and the crappy ones eventually disappear. 
Are you trying to protect the kids who go to bad law schools?  They don't need your protection, they have all the facts in front of their faces.  If there are too many lawyers then that sucks for the lawyers who can't make a living, but that is their problem not LSACs.

A lot of kids go to crappy MBA schools and never make a dime more because of it.  Do we need to get rid of the bottom business schools too?  I don't think so.Let people get an education if they want...  but make sure they know that nobody is guaranteeing anything.


Also, Florida Coastal and Cooley still deny a lot of applicants suprisingly enough.   Supposedly, 35%-40% of all applicants don't get accepted to any schools. 

[1LMan]

Business school graduates and sales people are not equipped with a tool to potentially ruin someone's life.  A licensed attorney can do just that and therefore the profession should require more monitoring.

[jack24]

Business school graduates and sales people are not equipped with a tool to potentially ruin someone's life.  A licensed attorney can do just that and therefore the profession should require more monitoring.

Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the Bar association to protect lives?  If you can pass the bar, isn't that supposed to mean you are "equipt" to practice law?

[1LMan]

It should mean that, but unfortunately it is not the case.  The AAMC monitors admissions to medical schools, graduation, passing the boards, admission to residency programs, and completion of residency programs....  The ABA has a one-time exam.  Do you see the deficiency here?

[jack24]

It should mean that, but unfortunately it is not the case.  The AAMC monitors admissions to medical schools, graduation, passing the boards, admission to residency programs, and completion of residency programs....  The ABA has a one-time exam.  Do you see the deficiency here?

I'll concede to your point that a bad lawyer can ruin lives, but that is different than a doctor.

A normal lawsuit takes months and months and there are many people involved.  A client can research the lawyers and make decisions over a long period of time. 
But if you get shot and go to the emergency room, that doctor has 10-120 minutes to save your life and there are no reversals.  You don't get to research and choose your doctor when you are bleeding on the table.

Lawyers are under-regulated, but that is because clients share some of the regulation responsibility.