TTT

[Peaches]

If you've made the decision to go to law school, you've done your research

Let's hope you didn't get that one on the LSAT...

There are lots of people in law school who didn't do their research.  I know many law students who had NO IDEA what the law schools they were choosing to attend were ranked.  And one of the points in the thread is that law schools still mislead those who at least attempt to do their research.  (About employment, salary, opportunities available, scholarship funding, OCI...) 

[dandlewood]

I'll amend that then.  Hopefully if you've made the decision to go to law school, you've done your research. 

and I agree about the misleading statements of law schools, but only insofar as ALL schools mislead.  Not just third and fourth tier schools.

[StrictlyLiable]

A bar passage rate doesn't mean that much to me.  Just because you can pass a bar doesn't mean that you will be a competent lawyer.  I'm sure that 90% of lawyers from 4th tier law schools aren't going to be competent lawyers.  Oh and I am addressing my posts more towards the lower ends of 4th tier law schools than anything else.

So, the ability of a school to produce students who pass the bar on the first try doesn't mean much to you, but the system of rankings which is based on the LSATs and GPAs of incoming students does? Really? Does that make much sense to you?

[blackpowerman]

I think there are some great debates goin on in this forum- both sides making valid arguments.  However, at first glance 2LMan made a seemingly golden point about the med school student ...
What i say to that - not every med school student can graduate top of the class- in fact, only 1 can graduate first (unless there is a tie in the gpa) but you get the point.  It comes down to reputation in practice.  I would not mind a 2.5 grad working on me as long as his performance is great, through reputations, etc.

There is this independent film with dan lauria and winnie from the wonder years- she is pissed about not getting a job or something and she says "i have a 4.0, blah blah blah" and he says, great- that means you are a GREAT student- practicing is different.

We have a professor here who graduated 1st in her harvard class.  I guarantee you she doesn't think the person who graduated last in her class is stupid, nor are they doing bad either.  It's what you make of the education and how it translates to the practice field.  

So 2LMan, although i dislike many many of your arguments, i can see the point you are trying to make, but I will say that "bad student" does not always translate to "bad practitioner" and vice versa.  also, as far as the tier rankings, its proven law schools will sometimes cheat and lie to get ahead of the rankings.  who knows, maybe my school is really a top 50- or maybe its really a tier 4?  Its all politics but i think once you are out and working, its up to you to prove your worth.  

[dandlewood]

The legal job market is not a uniform terrain where there is only room for the 'elite'.  There are many legal jobs for all types of people.   I respect T. Durden's ability to turn a phrase and he certainly has a good vocabulary, but it does nothing to assure me of the veracity of his statements. 

The comments I've seen have been well worded hate speech with little in the way of support. Even though the language is wonderful, I find the argument unconvincing.

PS: Most 3rd or fourth tier students don't go big law. Many because they actually don't want to. I'm not a big fan of hour quota's myself. 

[StrictlyLiable]

My "TTT" just earned the second highest first time passage rate for the Feb bar. That on top of a nearly 90% pass rate last July. But hey, stick to those reports and rankings, it'll make you feel good. You may have to take the bar 2 or 3 times, but at least you'll have "prestige".

What state bar?

PA, I go to Widener-Harrisburg. I'm less than a month from graduation.

As to Raven's question below: Widener (Hburg) has a 30% overall attrition rate. 12% of them are academic attritions. The rest are transfers. It takes alot to be academically dismissed from the school. If after first year you have below a 2.3 (we have a C+ curve) you get put in the remedial class. After that, if your GPA dips below 2.0 at any time, you are then dismissed.

So, in my view, when you make it very difficult to fail out AND lose most of the top third of the class each year to transfers, yet STILL successfully prepare 90% of your graduating class to pass the bar, you have a pretty darn good program. I know, I know, my school doesn't compare to Harvard are any of the othe schools where all their students get all A's and the entire class graduates with honors and I know that most of our students don't make 120K doing scut work at a BigLaw firm right of school. However, the overwhelming majority of us pass the bar on the first try and enter practice well prepared to enter a courtroom on day 1. So, I can live with a "low rank" in a few months when I have my freshly printed bar card in my wallet and am presenting my first case in front of a common pleas judge for a mere 50K/year, while the "prestigious graduates" are in the law library neck deep in research assignments for their senior associate and paying 2K a month for a New York City apartment that they never sleep in, while wondering how a person from a high ranking school like theirs could have ever failed the bar.

[T. Durden]

The legal job market is not a uniform terrain where there is only room for the 'elite'.  There are many legal jobs for all types of people.   I respect T. Durden's ability to turn a phrase and he certainly has a good vocabulary, but it does nothing to assure me of the veracity of his statements. 

The comments I've seen have been well worded hate speech with little in the way of support. Even though the language is wonderful, I find the argument unconvincing.

PS: Most 3rd or fourth tier students don't go big law. Many because they actually don't want to. I'm not a big fan of hour quota's myself. 

hey man i didn't mean it as a personal indictment; i just happen to know more than a few people at t3s that i *know* have no business being in law shcool, and it sucks that i get lumped in with them.

all the same, i hope that things work out on your end and props to you for taking the gamble

[Peaches]

So, the ability of a school to produce students who pass the bar on the first try doesn't mean much to you, but the system of rankings which is based on the LSATs and GPAs of incoming students does? Really? Does that make much sense to you?

Most of the T3/T4 are regional schools that focus on the law of a particular state and teach for the bar exams.  Students are corralled into taking courses with material that will be on the bar exam, whether or not they intend to practice in those areas.

T14 students, aside from the 6-8 basic 1L courses, often take courses that have little or no relevance to the bar.  They study high-level theory, finance, etc. instead of those general bar courses.  (For example, wtf would family law have to do with someone who wants a career in mezzanine finance and venture capital?) They go all over the country.  Top schools don't focus on the law in any particular jurisdiction.  Therefore, most T14 students go through 3 years of law school and learn everything that will be on the bar in a bar review course. 

Also, some state bars are notorious as more difficult than others.  A higher-ranked school sending 40% of its grads to a state with a difficult bar may have a lower bar passage rate than a lower-ranked school sending 85% of its grads in-state.

[StrictlyLiable]

First, PA is one the hardest bar exams to take in the nation.

Second, doesn't it strike you as a disservice that students get taught "high-level theory" at top schools, which have ZERO to do with passing the bar or the practice of law? Is it any wonder why most biglaw firms spend millions on the training of lawyers because top law schools teach them how to debate Marbury v. Madision instead of how to examine a witness or prepare an appellate brief?


If you want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in law school, only to have to spend a few extra thousand dollars teaching yourself the law in bar prep and then spending years doing scut work for associates while a firm teaches you how to practice, fine . . . to each his own. What I can't stand is the fact that people like Durden then look down their noses at people like me even though I would most likelt be able to dance circles around him in a courtroom upon graduation.  Anyway, I goota go now, I have Bar Review prep tonight.

[dandlewood]

No worries T. Durden, I understand what you're saying.  It just comes across a little... caustic.  But anywho, Strictly, I think your statement goes too far. I think there is a lot to be said about the theory courses taken in top 14, and I do think they help with practice of law. If there was one thing I would fix about Widener, it would be less required courses and more allowance for specialization.