TTT

[blackpowerman]

I go to a TTT - Third Tier Toilet, as some insecure losers like to dub it.  Yea, im talkin about you.  I don't think we expect to graduate making 100K- but in the top of the class, like every law school class, they walk out of here making 80-100K and for the rest of them (im on top thank God) they make 50-60 starting out.  I don't think that's bad, especially after a few years in the field your school "prestige" matters very little.  As far as education goes, I don't attend any other law schools so i can't attest- but i seem to be learning and when i talk to my buds at virgina and W/L, we seem to have covered the same material.  If you want to go to a TTT, make sure you really wanna go to law school.  If you wanna go to a T-4- make sure you REALLY wanna go to law school.

my .02 cents

[plex]

There is a little bit more to how much you will make coming out than just the law school you go to and your class rank. It also comes down to how much (useful) work experience you picked up and what type of law you are going into. Some types of work experience are much better than others (law firm job/federal court clerkship vs. teacher assistant/Westlaw rep). Also, some types of law are much more difficult to get into and as such, pay better than others (IP (100k+) vs. PD (40k max)).

[sternerstuff]

Lets not forget how determinative the interview is, I mean if I do half as well with the hiring partners as I do with the ladies on friday nights, IM GOLD.....no not really, i havent been out on a friday night in 3 weeks.(1L).... I dream about my undergad years though, sad vs creepy?

---Seriously though,    "Whats hot and Whats not" out there...
Ive heard IP, Elder Law, International Law, and Bankruptcy (which Ill be in soon enough if finals dont go well, I better audit the class)
---- Do we make ourselves more competitive at any level by specializing, or this a myth that loses out to the 'well rounded and versatile lawyer"---- this may be in another thread but I dont want to hunt.

[dandlewood]

I love this stuff. I won't even respond to the inane comments stereotyping T3/T4 schools.  I'll just say this: I'm graduating from a T4 school come fall.  I'm in the top half of my class, but not top third.  I have a 60k Job lined up not 5 minutes from my home in NJ. I'm not going to be raking in the big bucks, but I'll be working for a small but well recognized firm in the area. 


...


Ok, maybe I will respond to the inane comments.  I don't smoke pot.  I got a 1250 on the SAT's. I graduated from a prestigious high school in my area. Went to Undergrad at Villanova.  The teachers at my school have (with the exception of 1 or 2) been absolutely fabulous.  Some of the teachers at my school also teach in T2's in the area.  My Torts professor taught at Villanova Law. 

USNEWS rankings are not the will of the lord.  They are assembled statistics based upon factors which may never impact your education.  Your education is what you make of it. 

[NYC2L]

You are a credit to your school I'm sure and you may have had legitimate reasons for attending it. You also may be completely satisfied with your future job. However, unless you received a significant scholarship throughout law school, you invested upwards of 100K and 3 years for a 60K return. Now, if you had started working right out of undergrad, you probably could have made 40-60K. That means that your "investment" in law school netted you a negative return . . . economically. Of course I realize that you may truly love the law. But for the average person deciding between law school and something else, that is an awful investment.

My major concern with T3 and T4 (and practically all schools for that matter) is that they are not honest with naive students about employment opportunities. Hence, students enter these law schools with certain expectations that, in the vast majority of cases, go unfulfilled. I am incredibly happy for you because you seem content and that is more than can be said for most law students. Still, there are issues with these schools that go beyond your success story.

Finally, USNEWS rankings do impact your education because the higher ranked schools get the best professors and attract the most qualified students who get high paying jobs and donate money to the school. That windfall enables those schools to build better facilities and institute clinics and other ancillary programs. Then, all these things combine together to attract even better professors and even more qualified students. Hence, USNEWS rankings, although self-fulling, drastically affect the educational quality of the schools. To suggest otherwise is to ignore reality.

[DuckHuntinLawyer]

Man there's a lot of sh*t on this board about bashing T3s/T4s. I suspect most of it comes from T14 students. Suggestion: go take your Ivy League asses back to the library and leave the peons alone. There is a high level of insecurity on this board.

I don't have time to respond to NYC2L's expert financial analysis, but needless to say her return on debt ratio is extremely short-run, being based on one year of employment. We also don't expect our return of capital to be 100% in the first year. And lets not forget the earning potential and rate of salary increase in the legal profession versus just about any other. I think a juris doctor at almost any law school is worth the investment if you work hard.

With that in mind, I still agree rankings matter in getting that first job. I would have loved to go to a T14, but I wasn't smart enough, nor could I for other reasons even if I had the intellect. My point is, any T2, T3, or T4 can be just as successful as the next Ivy leaguer. You just have to work a little harder to overcome that school reputation windfall. It's not that hard, at least in my region. And I'm not talking out of my ass. I've seen Ivy leaguers get the wood laid to them in court by local T3s/T4s. That Ivy league name only takes you to the first job. If you can't get the job done, then get the hell out of the way. The LSAT can't help you now.

Well, I better get back to this beer I was drinking in celebration of Kansas winning the championship. Money in the bank.

Best of luck to all, and all you non-T14s out there, keep your head up. This board is full of sh*t.

[uart]

I don't smoke pot.

Same

I got a 1250 on the SAT's.

Not same.

I graduated from a prestigious high school in my area. Went to Undergrad at Villanova.

SAME! (How about those Wildcats!)

My Torts professor taught at Villanova Law. 

Not same (but, FWIW, the dean of Wake Forest's law school taught at Villanova Law).

USNEWS rankings are not the will of the lord.  They are assembled statistics based upon factors which may never impact your education.  Your education is what you make of it. 

Eh. They may never impact your education, but they do have an impact. It's all in perception.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're doing alright. ;-) Hopefully your new job will afford you some time to head back to the Main Line for a game or two?

[NYC2L]

"I think a juris doctor at almost any law school is worth the investment if you work hard."

While I cannot agree with you on this point . . .

"I better get back to this beer I was drinking in celebration of Kansas winning the championship."

I completely agree and toast you on this one.

Seriously though, I'm not trying to be a jerk or insult your school or you for choosing to attend it. I'm merely a proponent of full-disclosure. Prospective law students should know what they are getting into before they decide to take on massive amounts of debt for what are generally dismal job opportunities. And *most* schools (not just T3 and T4) do not readily provide that information.

Finally, my "financial analysis" was not meant to be comprehensive and I recognize (obviously) that salaries increase. However, if you were to calculate out the return on investment using reasonable assumptions, you would find that it takes an awful long time to recoup that 100K investment and 3 additional years of school. That is not to say that the investment never pays-offs. It does for a select few students from T3 and T4 schools. My point is that students should be made aware that the odds are stacked against them.

I should note that I transferred. I did not do well on the LSAT.

[1LMan]

a $60k job is not something to be proud of after spending 3 years of your life in law school.  The above posts aren't full of *&^%, they are reality.  The problem is, T3/T4 students want smoke blown up their asses, they don't want reality.

It's not about being arrogant, it's about not believing that everyone should be entitled to become a lawyer just like no one has entitlement to an MD. 

[dewayne_wayne]

a $60k job is not something to be proud of after spending 3 years of your life in law school.  The above posts aren't full of *&^%, they are reality.  The problem is, T3/T4 students want smoke blown up their asses, they don't want reality.

It's not about being arrogant, it's about not believing that everyone should be entitled to become a lawyer just like no one has entitlement to an MD. 

I agree.  We will have T1 and T4 sit for the bar exam, pass, get sworn in by the State, and then send T4 over to 2Lman's apartment for their final evaluation. 

T4:  Hello
2LMan's edict:  Hear ye, Hear ye!  You are not entitled to be a lawyer!  Be gone with you.  Next!

On another note:
The faulty disclosure problems seem real.  And the bad investment argument seems legit for many T3/4, unless free tuition or state school.