Job offer but pay is low...should I counter?

[afer1500]

I still want to make a counter just because I know that a few of the positions I have lined up pay atleast 12-15 per hour and I think one of those will pan out.


After hearing all the wisdom of your peers, I still think that is the right move.  I think it can be done with tact.  And, I think it can be done without conditioning acceptance of employment on the add'l $5/hr.  That is, "I accept, but how do you feel about $15/hr."  They may counter w/ $12/hr, in which case you are better off. 

From the firm's perspective: 
Paying you $15 is still a deal over the prior paralegal, especially if they are investing in your future, and acquiring someone w/your Spanish skills.

You think $15 is a deal for the firm to get a T4 grad when there are countless other T2,3,4 people without jobs? Even in this thread, people are complaining that they are either finding no work or taking unpaid things.

Honestly, I think if OP asks for a 50% raise, they will shoot him down.

That would be like me calling the firm I'm going to be working for this summer and telling them that $2,600/week isn't enough, I need $3,900 or else! Preposterous.

I don't really look at it like that at all. I look at it like this:

I'm a motived person w/ a BA capable of taking over for someone in a market that doesn't have many Spanish speakers. Being from a T4 doesn't matter to this firm, they respect my law school. This isn't about prestige its about doing what is right for your self. There are too many people in this forum who just undervalue themselves and that lack of confidence is precisely what is hurting them in interviews.

If you go into thinking you are only worth 10 dollars per hour you'll end up getting paid 5.50 or not get a job at all. Everyone in Law School is successful, they've completed a degree. They can ride and write well, these are  not marginal people, HAVE SOME PRIDE FOR GODS SAKE! 10 bones an hour is a joke to offer a college graduate.

[afer1500]

insulting the people who can't find jobs as having no personality or interview skills is not a wise idea. I know a LOT of these people, and I can say that for many of them, this is just untrue. It's a tight market right now, and while I don't think that's an excuse to sit on your butt, it does mean that a lot of desirable people can't find a paying job. Karma is a bitchh on this kind of stuff, so I suggest you stay humble at this early stage in your legal career and be grateful for someone giving you a break.
And no, I'm not bitter--I have a job, I just feel very badly for my friends who (through no fault of their own) don't.

Maybe their fault was slacking off in UG or not bothering to study hard for the LSAT and thus getting into a crap school where you can't get a job w/ top 10% and law review or whatever?

I mean, maybe their instant situation isn't their fault, but they got themselves into the mess either by slacking off too much in UG, on the LSAT, in law school, or not bothering to "network."

I'm going to keep harping on it...

I don't think tier has anything to do w/ finding work.

[GoGoPogo]

insulting the people who can't find jobs as having no personality or interview skills is not a wise idea. I know a LOT of these people, and I can say that for many of them, this is just untrue. It's a tight market right now, and while I don't think that's an excuse to sit on your butt, it does mean that a lot of desirable people can't find a paying job. Karma is a bitchh on this kind of stuff, so I suggest you stay humble at this early stage in your legal career and be grateful for someone giving you a break.
And no, I'm not bitter--I have a job, I just feel very badly for my friends who (through no fault of their own) don't.

Maybe their fault was slacking off in UG or not bothering to study hard for the LSAT and thus getting into a crap school where you can't get a job w/ top 10% and law review or whatever?

I mean, maybe their instant situation isn't their fault, but they got themselves into the mess either by slacking off too much in UG, on the LSAT, in law school, or not bothering to "network."

I'm going to keep harping on it...

I don't think tier has anything to do w/ finding work.

Then it's just that people from good schools are smarter and harder working? No offense, I didn't have much trouble finding a job paying a very good amount for my first summer, neither did my classmates. The only people without jobs through 2L OCI are either completely inept at interviews or are in the bottom 10%, and even those people end up in midlaw making $100k/year.

Your school has really indoctrinated you with the whole "you're just as good as people at top schools and will be able to find jobs as easily as them" propaganda, huh? Ironic given that the ONLY OFFER you've found is for a firm trying to pay you $10/hr...

That's fine, you are the one who made your choices, but saying that "tiers don't matter when finding jobs" when your life is proving the exact opposite is quite delusional, wouldn't you agree?

[mike4488]

Well I don't go to a t14 law school but it is pretty ridiculous to say tiers don't matter.  There is a difference between Yale and Cooley

[afer1500]

insulting the people who can't find jobs as having no personality or interview skills is not a wise idea. I know a LOT of these people, and I can say that for many of them, this is just untrue. It's a tight market right now, and while I don't think that's an excuse to sit on your butt, it does mean that a lot of desirable people can't find a paying job. Karma is a bitchh on this kind of stuff, so I suggest you stay humble at this early stage in your legal career and be grateful for someone giving you a break.
And no, I'm not bitter--I have a job, I just feel very badly for my friends who (through no fault of their own) don't.

Maybe their fault was slacking off in UG or not bothering to study hard for the LSAT and thus getting into a crap school where you can't get a job w/ top 10% and law review or whatever?

I mean, maybe their instant situation isn't their fault, but they got themselves into the mess either by slacking off too much in UG, on the LSAT, in law school, or not bothering to "network."

I'm going to keep harping on it...

I don't think tier has anything to do w/ finding work.

Then it's just that people from good schools are smarter and harder working? No offense, I didn't have much trouble finding a job paying a very good amount for my first summer, neither did my classmates. The only people without jobs through 2L OCI are either completely inept at interviews or are in the bottom 10%, and even those people end up in midlaw making $100k/year.

Your school has really indoctrinated you with the whole "you're just as good as people at top schools and will be able to find jobs as easily as them" propaganda, huh? Ironic given that the ONLY OFFER you've found is for a firm trying to pay you $10/hr...

That's fine, you are the one who made your choices, but saying that "tiers don't matter when finding jobs" when your life is proving the exact opposite is quite delusional, wouldn't you agree?

Not at all. I'm happy w/ my life. I'm happy w/ my choices. If what I can do this summer is worth 10 per hour I can live with it. Money is not the end all be all for me but merely an ends to a means.

If it makes you feel better to gloat and brag about your pay keep on keeping on. I'm happy that you got what you wanted. Even if I was homeless and poor I wouldn't have an ounce of regret in my body. I have an awesome apartment, great wife and friends, a kick ass dog, great porn and sports subscription. I want for nothing in my life. So ummmm yeah thats about it. :shrug:

[sir_scott]

I still want to make a counter just because I know that a few of the positions I have lined up pay atleast 12-15 per hour and I think one of those will pan out.


After hearing all the wisdom of your peers, I still think that is the right move.  I think it can be done with tact.  And, I think it can be done without conditioning acceptance of employment on the add'l $5/hr.  That is, "I accept, but how do you feel about $15/hr."  They may counter w/ $12/hr, in which case you are better off. 

From the firm's perspective: 
Paying you $15 is still a deal over the prior paralegal, especially if they are investing in your future, and acquiring someone w/your Spanish skills.

You think $15 is a deal for the firm to get a T4 grad when there are countless other T2,3,4 people without jobs? Even in this thread, people are complaining that they are either finding no work or taking unpaid things.

Honestly, I think if OP asks for a 50% raise, they will shoot him down.

That would be like me calling the firm I'm going to be working for this summer and telling them that $2,600/week isn't enough, I need $3,900 or else! Preposterous.

The only problem with your analogical reasoning is that, well, your analogy is retarded.

The guy is worth more than $400/week w/out any legal education, w/out being a future associate with the firm.

And, why are you so preoccupied w/getting the guy to be soooo grateful for $10/hr - that is poverty, literally. 

He has a marketable skill w/ his Spanish and has a B.A.

[Peaches]

A few notes...

I think that it may not be "personality" exactly that is a problem for many law students without jobs -- it's JUDGMENT.  People write truly terrible cover letters.  They say things they shouldn't to  firm, and don't say some of the things they should.  They don't understand how their tone comes across in e-mails, and have Facebook profiles of them in their Halloween costumes dressed as slutty nurse.  It's not chance that I've gotten an offer at every single callback I've gone on.  (I've gotten the offers within at least 3-4 business days of the interview.  I know that's not true for everyone, but if you were their first choice you'd probably know by now.)  And included in that judgment is thinking you're hot *&^% out of the T4.  

Also, the $63k is dubious for the reasons listed by other posters (reporting problem, calculating).  But find a student loan calculator online.  Even $63,000 is terrible unless you're going to school for free or cheap.  To make the payments to pay my loans back within ten years without "some financial hardship" (according to the calculators), I'll need to make at least $130,000 starting.  That won't be a problem for me, but it's something you should look in to before talking up your school's inflated $63k starting salaries.

And rah, rah.  We all go to law school.  To some degree we all may be in the "top" segments of the US population, somewhat loosely defined given the low admissions standards at lots of schools.  But that doesn't mean you're in the top of the field, or that the firms would *want* everyone, even if the market wasn't tight.  Not everyone is successful, and not everyone in law school has the tools to be successful.  These people are disproportionately present in the fourth tier.  You can't positive-think yourself into a high paying legal job.  [As a sidebar to my "bad judgment" earlier in this post, overconfidence is also a problem.]

And here's a newsflash.  We all have BAs and a foreign language.  You can maybe stand out in another field with that, but not law.

This is what you need: legal experience plus enough money to survive the summer.  This is what they're offering: legal experience   plus enough money to survive the summer.  There are more people who need legal experience this summer than there are jobs offering legal experience.  That's the market. 

So while you're right that the market isn't that tight and not all gloom and doom, that's true primarily if you have something that's sought after -- like if you're at a T14 or the top of your class.  But you're not at a T14, and you're not choosing between 10 midlaw/biglaw offers.  You don't offer much that's unique or in high demand, so you're debating a paralegal job at $10 an hour.  And I think you should take it. 

[afer1500]

I disagree Peaches. But fair enough. I'm going to do what I think is best that'll be that. Good luck the rest of the semester.

[sir_scott]

It's not chance that I've gotten an offer at every single callback I've gone on.  (I've gotten the offers within at least 3-4 business days of the interview.  I know that's not true for everyone, but if you were their first choice you'd probably know by now.)  And included in that judgment is thinking you're hot *&^% out of the T4. 

Hell yes! Those T4's that think they are such "hot sh-t," I mean come on!  So, obnoxious, right?

Only thing worse are those people that will never love anyone more than themselves.  Peaches, I bet you can't help but make out with a mirror - irresistible!  mmmmm-tongue-mmmm smoochy smoochy mmmmm - peachy i luv u - mmmmm

[GoGoPogo]

I disagree Peaches. But fair enough. I'm going to do what I think is best that'll be that. Good luck the rest of the semester.

You're trying to mislead a lot of people. Regardless of whether you're doing what you want or not, you're working a job that you likely could have gotten out of high school.

It's like getting a masters degree specifically to work at Starbucks; sure, you can do it, but you would be very overqualified.