Non-Bar Law Degree

[thorc954]

DEFENSE.  I figured you love learning online, so I'd give you a mini English less for free.

[thorc954]

"I noticed some posts about Novus. Has anyone actually enrolled in it? How much did you pay before finding out the truth? What about other fake schools(non bar approved). Lets vent about it folks, lets here it."

quote from you from another thread.

tool.

[olive]

Heres the real question folks. If you have ABA preference then why waste your time on the non-aba section of this forum that is meant for people who are into it? That would be like someone who hates state defence forces going to http://www.vajoe.com 

I didn't realize this post was in a non-ABA section until after my post went through -- I clicked on it because it was one of the "most recent posts" on the main page. I didn't even know there was a whole area dedicated to non-ABA schools until today. I feel a little guilty now, but I stand by everything I said.

[jd2008]

  First of all, you added the (non aba approved) part. Second, if you hate the bar laws so much, gee lets see......act like the lawyer that you want to be and get it changed. As for Novus, if it makes me a "tool" to want to discuss a law topic on a law forum, then I guess the tool I am is the plunger you need to remove the stick from up your ass.

"I noticed some posts about Novus. Has anyone actually enrolled in it? How much did you pay before finding out the truth? What about other fake schools(non bar approved). Lets vent about it folks, lets here it."

quote from you from another thread.

tool.

[thorc954]

Umm... anyone that doesnt believe that was there, check through his old posts.  I didnt add anything, nor would I.

Umm.. I dont hate the bar laws, I think that non-aba schools scam students and they are a waste of money, but whatever.

you called them fake schools yourself.  you also talked about venting about it.  how quick you change your mind.

[jeffislouie]

You say that professors who graduated from aba schools wouldnt teach at non-aba schools. There are many flaws with that. For starters then why are graduates from high level regionally accredited schools like harvard teaching at online nationally accredited colleges such as calcoast U? That alone should prove some points.

Link please?  And I didn't say they DON'T teach there, I said they were unlikely to consider teaching there.  As in their preferred institution would be aba-approved.  As in there is a preference for employers, which you cannot refute because it is a truth.


[/quote]
As for the average joe careing about aba, give me a break. All that counts is results, and let me tell you why in real world examples. Most people who have CDL's get them from truck driving schools, but some get a "TIP" and learn at under a friend without schooling. My friend got his CDL that way. At first NO ONE would hire him without schooling due to limited experience. I payed for the school, and found that he was able to get hired in quicker than me at that point, becuase even though I had the school  he had found a place to hire him for awhile at a low wage for experience and after that experience spoke louder than a diploma from a school.
[/quote]

Completely irrelevant.  An educated customer is the best customer.  Deal with it.  Allow me to offer a more relevant and accurate "real world" example...

You get into a car accident and need body work done.  While looking for shops, you come across two with wildly varying rate structures.  One shop has employees that are all trained and certified by a governing body.  All the people who do the body work attended an accredited body repair school.  They quote you $1000 to do the work.  The other shop is staffed by a guy who took an on-line correspondence course in body repair and quotes you $500.  Which body shop do you go to?
Duh.

[/quote]
If a lawyer wins cases for his clients, they give "word of mouth" and they keep coming in. You may  have to tighten that belt for a few years while proving yourself, but you will prove it. Also, if an ABA lawyer wants $100 an hour and blue coller Joe cant afford it, he may want it, but wont get it, period.  If you offer him it at $50 an hour, he will take what he can afford if he really needs it. Walmart sells stuff way cheaper than other stores yet has a higher profit due to bulk sales. You may want to drive a BMW but if you cant afford it then you will drive a geo to get around, dispite your thoughts on what you'd prefer if you weren't who you are. Period.
[/quote]

Mmmm.  Lovely scenario you have built up.  Tell me, how many attorneys fit your description?  $100 an hour?  Yeah.  Right.  "According to recent article in the National Law Journal, last year, 119 of the nation's 300 largest law firms provided billing rate information for the NLJ's annual survey. Among firms reporting average and median rates in both 2006 and 2007, average firmwide billing rates increased from $321 to $348 per hour last year, with the median rate jumping from $324 to $347 per hour."
http://wagelaw.typepad.com/wage_law/2008/01/average-billing.html

But anyway....  Cheaper, ESPECIALLY IN THE LAWYER WORLD, does not always mean better.  My brother is a practicing attorney and he just RAISED his rates.  He was working with a group that specializes in marketing lawyers in his speciality.  They asked him what he was charging and they laughed at him.  They gave him the phone number of an area attorney who was charging 30% more and he called.  The attorney told him what he charged.  Shocked, my brother asked him how much business walks out of the attorney's door and his response was "less than 10%.  I'm so busy, I have to refer a ton of business."  My brother decided to raise his rates and quote 30% higher for a month to test the concept out.  Guess what?  The first three times he quoted his price, the client wrote a check on the spot.  He remains at the higher rate, noted no decrease in business, and now makes MORE MONEY for the same work.
The moral of the story, which I realize you are free to ignore, is that like every other sale, pricing too low SHOULD and DOES cause suspicion.  Pricing properly leaves the client with a degree of confidence that he isn't dealing with a moron who is going to lose the case because he knows he isn't worth more money.  Attitude is a big part of lawyering.
That said, feel free to bust your ass while charging half what other attorney's charge hoping that the low rent, low class clientele you earn provide you with referrals.  What a bunch of nonsense.

[/quote]
If no non-aba lawyers can find work, then why do they? Why dont they all strave to death or committ group suicide? Tell me why if you know so much about it.
[/quote]

Jeebus - I NEVER SAID that no non-aba law school graduates find work.  I was merely pointing out an obvious issue that comes from attending non-aba law schools, which you have clearly chosen to either ignore or excuse.  Sure, you can find work.  But so far, you haven't really sold me on the idea of attending a non-aba law school if I can get into an aba-approved one (which I have).
Your pro's are:
-It is cheaper
-You can charge your clients less
-Your clients will be too stupid to realize or care that you went to a school that isn't accredited by the ABA
-You can earn less for longer
and your negatives are:
-you don't seem to see any

what a salesman.

[/quote]
If non-aba is so bad, then why do other starts also have non-aba program in some other states also.(Its not just Cali if you actually look it up). Tell me that too while your at it.
[/quote]

Ok.  I will.  Of the 50 states that make up this, the greatest country in the world - The United States of America, only SEVEN allow you to SIT FOR THE BAR.  Each of those states have a reputation for having three kinds of lawyers:
-Good
-Bad
-Worse
And the fun doesn't end there, either:
Your law degree from a non-aba approved law school allows you to sit for the bar in one state only.  Period.  And I am fairly certain that no other state will honor your license, particularly the 43 states that don't allow graduates from non-aba approved law schools sit from the bar.  I'm fairly certain that states that DO allow you to sit for the bar (of which there are seven) won't even allow you to petition to practice without taking their bar exam first.  This means that if you want to move, you are limited to states that don't have an aba law school requirement (seven states), and then you have to take their states bar exam.
Enjoy that.  Nothing is more fun than deciding to move and having to take the bar exam again.  And I know you wish to ignore this, but statistically speaking, lawyers from non-aba approved law schools have to take the bar multiple times to pass.
Sounds like awesome.

I will say it ONE MORE TIME:  enjoy law school.  I wish you well.  I'm confident that you will make the most of your non-aba approved program.  You should know that there are issues that may arise later, which you either don't care about or refuse to recognize.  There are options:  for instance, you could transfer into an aba approved law school and take a requisite number of credits there and not have this issue slapping you around for the rest of your life.

[jd2008]

Dumbass. I said that they are fake if not bar approved. Online ones are bar approved. I never changed my mind. Learn to read.

you called them fake schools yourself.  you also talked about venting about it.  how quick you change your mind.
[/quote]

[thorc954]

Dumbass. I said that they are fake if not bar approved. Online ones are bar approved. I never changed my mind. Learn to read.

you called them fake schools yourself.  you also talked about venting about it.  how quick you change your mind.

[/quote]

The bar is the American Bar Association, and there are no online aba-accredited schools.

now, i am done talking about this bull, i dont argue with idiots.  If for some reason I ever go to one of those seven states and you actually manage to pass the bar, I look forward to making you look like a fool in court.

[jd2008]

Bar stands for whatever state bar you are in. There is no american bar exam, just the state bar exam that includes the multistate bar exam in it. Hell even I know that. Look on the books. Bar approved, Bar accredited. Both are definitions on non-aba approved colleges is CA.
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The bar is the American Bar Association, and there are no online aba-accredited schools.

now, i am done talking about this bull, i dont argue with idiots.  If for some reason I ever go to one of those seven states and you actually manage to pass the bar, I look forward to making you look like a fool in court.
[/quote]

[jeffislouie]

Bar stands for whatever stand bar you are in. There is no american bar exam, just the state bar exam that includes the multistate bar exam in it. Hell even I know that. Look on the books. Bar approved, Bar accredited. Both are definitions on non-aba approved colleges is CA.
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Please explain what the F*(K you are trying to say, because nothing you wrote in this post makes a lick of sense, especially in light of the conversation to this point.
What does this sentence, by itself, mean?
"Bar stands for whatever stand bar you are in."
Please?  Because this sentence makes no sense... Did you mean "Bar stands for whatever state bar you are in"?  then it still makes no sense.
Do you mean to say this: "A bar association is a professional body of lawyers. Some bar associations are responsible for the regulation of the legal profession in their jurisdiction; others are professional organizations dedicated to serving their members; in many cases, they are both."
Well, in that case, the only bar association of any real importance in terms of taking the bar exam is the ABA.  why?  Because in 43 states, you cannot sit for the bar unless you graduated from an ABA-approved school.
Which is the whole damn point.
Which makes this sentence "There is no american bar exam, just the state bar exam that includes the multistate bar exam in it. Hell even I know that." stupid.  There may not be an american bar association bar exam, but that doesn't stop 43 states from adhering the the aba rule.  And once again, without an aba-approved law license, you cannot practice in any other state.  Ever.  Unless, of course, they are one of 7 states that don't have an aba rule, and then you have to sit for a whole new bar exam.  Attorney's in good standing with the ABA can petition to have their license extended to another state.
Bar approved is meaningless unless it has the word "american" before the word bar and the word "association" after it.
Same with bar accredited.
You are arguing a moot point that is meaningless.  Why?  Because no one cares or recognizes any other accreditation, save for 7 states, and those licenses are severely limited.
One question:
Why are you still arguing this?  Study more, work harder, and stop defending your non-aba-accredited school.  You (and others) should be aware of the limitation of the degree and the limitations your degree puts on you.
As a future graduate of an aba-approved law school, I can sit for any bar, in any state, at any time.  All 50.  I can practice in California, then decide to move to Texas.  Or New York.  Or Georgia.  Or Washington.  Or Utah.  Or Idaho.  You cannot.  You will forever be limited to one of 7 states,  Additionally, I have a chance that by appeal, my license can be recognized in other states.  You have no such opportunity.

Here's a few fun facts you should also know:
- Overall bar exam pass rates tend to hover between 35% and 55%, and are always the lowest in the United States
- Many pundits postulate that one reason for the low pass rates is that California allows graduates of law schools that have not been accredited by the American Bar Association to take its bar exam
-  Graduates of ABA schools have a first-time pass rate of approximately 69%, while graduates of non-ABA schools pass at a rate of about 25% on the first try (in 2005, first-time takers who attended non-ABA schools passed at 25.9% rate).
- When asked about this issue by a journalist, law professor Rory Little bluntly stated, "We've got a lot of hack people taking the exam who [sic] you really wouldn't want to pass. We've got enough hacks."
- Another reason for the low passage rate is that repeat takers may take the exam as many times as necessary to pass;[34] approximately 15% of repeaters pass the exam on each administration
(all from wiki)