So my crap school has a guy working at Cravath

[Bored 3L]

[/quote]



the guy is just trying to debunk the pervasive myth on this board that if you don't get into T14 you have no chance at big law and shouldn't even bother going to law school for that matter...whether you would want a big law job is another matter...give him a break.
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I wouldn't call it a pervasive myth -- it's largely true.  I don't think anyone on this board has ever said you must go to a T14 to have *any* chance of working in biglaw; rather, people have just said if you want to have a realistic chance of working in biglaw, you need to go to a T14.

I can tell you based on my experience in OCI and now what I see as an associate in biglaw, my firm will basically only hire two kinds of people (1) people from the T14 w/decent credentials; and (2) people from solid regional schools with excellent credentials, i.e. top 5-10%, law review, etc.  And "solid regional schools" consists mostly of schools ranked roughly 30 to 100 in USNews, but there are certainly a few exceptions here and there.  And even among these regional schools, I think there's a sliding scale -- you'll have to be even more impressive coming from a school ranked 75 than a school in the mid-30s.  (Btw, I'm not suggesting anyone at my firm consults USNews and works this out, just using it as a rough proxy for quality.)

Note that this is reflected in the OP's example: the guy was from a school ranked in the 30s in USNews, graduated summa, was EIC of the law review, etc.  So, sure, you can get biglaw from a variety of schools -- just make sure you finish your first year in the top 5-10% of the class and join the law review.   

[jarhead]

I wouldn't call it a pervasive myth -- it's largely true.  I don't think anyone on this board has ever said you must go to a T14 to have *any* chance of working in biglaw; rather, people have just said if you want to have a realistic chance of working in biglaw, you need to go to a T14.


i think you should read this board more thoroughly especially the prelaw side. i don't agree with realistic either...if you got to a T14 your chances are optimal yes, but to say that you can only or "realistically" get there from a T14 is not simply not true.

[Bored 3L]

I wouldn't call it a pervasive myth -- it's largely true.  I don't think anyone on this board has ever said you must go to a T14 to have *any* chance of working in biglaw; rather, people have just said if you want to have a realistic chance of working in biglaw, you need to go to a T14.


i think you should read this board more thoroughly especially the prelaw side. i don't agree with realistic either...if you got to a T14 your chances are optimal yes, but to say that you can only or "realistically" get there from a T14 is not simply not true.

Do you think it's realistic for someone to assume they will be in the top 5-10% of their class, and be on the law review?  B/c that's what it will take from most schools outside the T14.   

[Buddy Holly]

The bottom of the class at NYU or Columbia (and even at a couple of lower ranked schools) will still get 160k NYC if they want it. Cravath isn't a lock but once you hit T14 and, especially, T10, 160k in NYC is all but assured.

[jarhead]

The bottom of the class at NYU or Columbia (and even at a couple of lower ranked schools) will still get 160k NYC if they want it. Cravath isn't a lock but once you hit T14 and, especially, T10, 160k in NYC is all but assured.

no one is arguing this, but making a statement about all big law firms based off of the one you happen to work at is what's not realistic. of course firms go deeper into classes of top 5-14 schools. but if you got to martindalehubbel or NALP you will be quite surprised at the myriad of schools representing at the big law firms, there are more than 5 by the way. if you're in a top 14 school great congratulations. but quit yanking your own you know what by implying that those who are not should "realistically" lower their expectations.

[Buddy Holly]

The bottom of the class at NYU or Columbia (and even at a couple of lower ranked schools) will still get 160k NYC if they want it. Cravath isn't a lock but once you hit T14 and, especially, T10, 160k in NYC is all but assured.

no one is arguing this, but making a statement about all big law firms based off of the one you happen to work at is what's not realistic. of course firms go deeper into classes of top 5-14 schools. but if you got to martindalehubbel or NALP you will be quite surprised at the myriad of schools representing at the big law firms, there are more than 5 by the way. if you're in a top 14 school great congratulations. but quit yanking your own you know what by implying that those who are not should "realistically" lower their expectations.

They should lower their expectations. My friend is at the second highest ranked local school in my area (2nd tier), near the top 10% of her class, and I had to pull strings to get her a BIGLAW interview at my firm. It's a tough world out there, in the legal employment arena, if you aren't coming from a top school.

[Bored 3L]

The bottom of the class at NYU or Columbia (and even at a couple of lower ranked schools) will still get 160k NYC if they want it. Cravath isn't a lock but once you hit T14 and, especially, T10, 160k in NYC is all but assured.

no one is arguing this, but making a statement about all big law firms based off of the one you happen to work at is what's not realistic. of course firms go deeper into classes of top 5-14 schools. but if you got to martindalehubbel or NALP you will be quite surprised at the myriad of schools representing at the big law firms, there are more than 5 by the way. if you're in a top 14 school great congratulations. but quit yanking your own you know what by implying that those who are not should "realistically" lower their expectations.

I can't tell if your use of the word realistic (or its derivations) twice in this post is supposed to indicate that you disagree with my assessment that, outside of the T14, it's unrealistic to expect to work in biglaw.  If so, perhaps I can refine that a little.  I'd agree that many schools just outside the T14 also place well in big law, for example, GW, UCLA, etc.  And there are also other schools that place well in their home market, for example, Fordham.  But at many, many law schools, and certainly virtually all schools in the third and fourth tier of US News, you have to be at the very top of the class to even be considered in biglaw.  Statistically, it's going to be a small group of people at these schools.  Perhaps we can agree that at many schools it's unlikely you will work in biglaw, rather than calling it unrealistic?

For what it's worth, I didn't go to a T14.  I went to a lower ranked school and excelled, so I've seen some of this first hand. 

[Blunderbuss]

For the record, I wasn't trying to debunk the "myth" that only people from T14 schools work for biglaw.  If anything, what I have seen so far overwhelmingly confirms that myth. 

[aldine09]

Then what exactly is T14?  Because the University of Texas is not in the Top 14, and UT has 146 lawyers at Baker Botts (definitely BIGLAW).  Harvard has 52 lawyers.  My tier 2 school (University of Houston) has 55.  Does this mean I have more of a chance getting a job at Baker Botts than a Harvard grad?  No.  It doesn't.  It means that the firms hire regional graduates on the basis of rank. 

Let's check out Vinson and Elkins.  221 Lawyers from Univ. of Texas. 47 from Harvard, 48 from Houston.  Same thing. 

Like I said earlier, South Texas College of Law (Tier 4) has 26 people at Vinson and Elkins.

Living in New York, you may need to go to a T14, because of the competition of the other regional schools.  Same with D.C.

[jarhead]

The bottom of the class at NYU or Columbia (and even at a couple of lower ranked schools) will still get 160k NYC if they want it. Cravath isn't a lock but once you hit T14 and, especially, T10, 160k in NYC is all but assured.

no one is arguing this, but making a statement about all big law firms based off of the one you happen to work at is what's not realistic. of course firms go deeper into classes of top 5-14 schools. but if you got to martindalehubbel or NALP you will be quite surprised at the myriad of schools representing at the big law firms, there are more than 5 by the way. if you're in a top 14 school great congratulations. but quit yanking your own you know what by implying that those who are not should "realistically" lower their expectations.

I can't tell if your use of the word realistic (or its derivations) twice in this post is supposed to indicate that you disagree with my assessment that, outside of the T14, it's unrealistic to expect to work in biglaw.  If so, perhaps I can refine that a little.  I'd agree that many schools just outside the T14 also place well in big law, for example, GW, UCLA, etc.  And there are also other schools that place well in their home market, for example, Fordham.  But at many, many law schools, and certainly virtually all schools in the third and fourth tier of US News, you have to be at the very top of the class to even be considered in biglaw.  Statistically, it's going to be a small group of people at these schools.  Perhaps we can agree that at many schools it's unlikely you will work in biglaw, rather than calling it unrealistic?

For what it's worth, I didn't go to a T14.  I went to a lower ranked school and excelled, so I've seen some of this first hand. 

i realized after i wrote it that i was addressing two different posts...i was half agreeing with your post while disagreeing with the "at my firm" guy. obvioulsy i'm not a lawyer yet but at the job i just left i worked in DC with lawyers every day for the past 9 years. in beltway terms i was a "consultant" which is a fancy way of saying i can't say what i actually did. you name a law school and i probably know someone who graduated from there, especially on the east coast. i got into harvard and a few other good schools this last cycle i'm thoroughly convinced because one of them put in a good word for me so i'm not being defensive. i said all that to say i read a lot of things on here that just are not true. this whole T14 or die is just BS, im sorry but it is. if you do well at a tier 1 school you have a realistic shot at a big law firm. you may not start in NYC but some of the regional branches of big law firms i.e. los angeles, s. florida, wherever in the south atlanta, texas whatever are not as particular. yes your chances for starting out with the wind at your back are great if you go to a T14 but the notion that you have to be 10% at your loser non 14 school is just bunk. i don't care what you're particular firm does there are a lot of lawyers out there who work in big law and make the big bucks who did not go to T14 schools. i know this because i worked with dozens of them every day for the past 9 years. i've also worked with the GT, Harvard, Yale guys and gals who think that they are god's gift because they went to those schools, usually they are not. it's usually the guy who went to the so called off brand law school (talking tier 1 still) who worked his as- off to get good grades (top 20%) who knows the law standing on his head. im not saying that all the T14 guys were like that because they weren't. but the ones who were were also the type that looked down on those who didn't have the pedigree. i've also had dealings with the firms, two here in washington come to mind, who only recruit from 1-5, who will only consider law review top 10% etc. from "lower ranked" schools etc. i personally would never want to work for any of those firms.