Thomas Cooley Students

[OkinawanLawyer]

ohhh absolutely!  i completely agree.  again, i havnt spent a single day in class, but im sure there is that dude, or chick that wont STFU in class, asks the  most stupid questions, but because of the setting, she screws it up for the rest of us, because she/he is wasting everyones time.   Or the prof keeps calling on that one person that he knows will give the wrong answer because he wants to prove a point..(he can always count on the dumbass in class to give the wrong answer so it makes him look super duper knowledgeable!)   i understand.   Possibly, it would serve the school better (since not too many people dispute its difficulty) to immediately place those students that didnt score very well, and are on the border or bubble from day one, on probation.  Im not sure if that would be discrimination or not, but if you set a specific admissions requirement, but allow many more people that are on the bubble academically or otherwise, that perhaps a letter of condition should be accompanied.   you scored a sub 150 ( and i say set it at 150 because thats the border between terrible and so-so) and whatever your GPA was..i dont know what matrix you use in this situation, but lower than that and the school places you on probation immediately.  after your first term, your probation is either lessened or removed.  the school sets your schedule, say no more than 9 hours or whatever regardless of full time or part time, and with the school walking you through it in this fashion, possibly it changes the reputation.  the same students still flunk out, the school still makes the money it was going to make, but since it is the level of BS students that cooley allows in that is making the rep so bad, then secluding these students from the outset, and introducing them slower into "GEN-POP" will raise the level of learning for all, and make the reputation alot better.

that would make a lot of sense to me.    if we are using your rational as to why the school is bad.  I havnt heard that perspective, and honestly didnt consider that.  so that makes alot of sense to me.

so then, as a help, and to a person that is not in classes yet, position myself for top 5%.  what is it that i need to do?  studying is a given!  but are groups better or worse?  are they like girls, you have to run through a few to find the one that a snug fit?   and even if you say, well you are a lost cause since you are going to cooley, then give me the tools i will need to be there so i can transfer?!     hows that.  im just trying to steer the comments from ragging and ridiculing to assistance.   (and telling me to kill myself or quit is not acceptable!)
 

understand that we are all either will, or are going through the *&^% together.  if you can help your brother or sister, do it, if all you wanna do is crap all over them, then go hang yourself!

[OkinawanLawyer]

but it still doesnt make any sense though, that you say that because they are more liberal in their admissions policy, that it makes the school bad.    if you are saying that, then you are also saying that the level of education is garbage.  so if a school only allowed 10 people per term...that would be the best school?   regardless of level of education?

as far as level of education is concered, again, that was not the argument. the argument is that the level of education is that your education at a school like cooley is significatly lower than T1 school x because of the lower level of discussion/learning in the classroom, which is many times, if not most of the time, a product of your peers responses/comments etc..

but at the same time again, having never been there, you assume that it is. (bro trust me im not saying that it is on par at all!!   )

i think that that line of thinking at this point contributes to the perception.  many people associate alot of "unqualified" students + discussion = poor conversation/poor learning for all    which may be true.  but look at your lecture classes in college.  you know you had morons in there that were called on and rambled about nothing.  did that limit your education?  i would look towards the prof to actively navigate around those morons once they have outted themselves.   and you will have idealist in all classes that think the world should think like them and want to argue with everyone that doesnt.  T1 schools or otherwise.

[cesco]

Possibly, it would serve the school better (since not too many people dispute its difficulty) to immediately place those students that didnt score very well, and are on the border or bubble from day one, on probation.  Im not sure if that would be discrimination or not, but if you set a specific admissions requirement, but allow many more people that are on the bubble academically or otherwise, that perhaps a letter of condition should be accompanied.   you scored a sub 150 ( and i say set it at 150 because thats the border between terrible and so-so) and whatever your GPA was..i dont know what matrix you use in this situation, but lower than that and the school places you on probation immediately.  after your first term, your probation is either lessened or removed.  the school sets your schedule, say no more than 9 hours or whatever regardless of full time or part time, and with the school walking you through it in this fashion, possibly it changes the reputation.  the same students still flunk out, the school still makes the money it was going to make, but since it is the level of BS students that cooley allows in that is making the rep so bad, then secluding these students from the outset, and introducing them slower into "GEN-POP" will raise the level of learning for all, and make the reputation alot better.

The reason Tier 1 schools do not do this (admit students with low scores in and place them on probation) is because there are enough students who perform well on the LSAT or have strong undergrad grades/softs that they do not have to.  They are able to fill their classrooms using the vast quantity of highly qualified students interested in attending LS. 

Bottom barrel schools do exactly what you are referring to - they let in less qualified students and then weed them out with their horrible attrition rates. This is why everyone is warning you about Cooley.  They have a horrible attrition rate, and their employment statistics are not good.  Going to school there is a huge risk.  If you manage to do well, then you still face the tough situation of convincing employers to hire you over the thousands of students graduating from more reputable schools.

[thorc954]

First, I am glad you are seeing some of our criticism as constructive.  I want to call your attention to a policy that many fourth tier schools (maybe an over generalization, maybe not, didnt do the math/research) have.  A few schools have a summer start program for the students that belong on probation.  They start (florida coastal is online I believe) taking classes during their summer before they start and then have to make a certain cut to be allowed to continue on at the law school.  This lets those students know that 1) they are not on the same level as their peers yet, and 2) they have a significantly good chance of not succeeding and not completing a degree.


Now, as far as getting into the top 5%, this is really contingent on you personally as a student.  Most of my friends are at the top of the class here, and many of them take different approaches.

Some general advice though:
1) do all the reading, dont skim it, but actually read it
2) go to all of your classes
3) take the best notes you can in class
4) outline, make your own outline, dont take someone else's outline regardless of how smart you are

Some advice from stuff I used, but this may vary
When it gets closer to exam time, maybe during the reading period before exams, start on practice exams.  This is when it might be helpful to have a study group.  Do practice exams and discuss them briefly (very briefly with your group).  You can quickly lose focus and get into tangents about irrelevant *&^% if you are not too careful on this. 

My study group used to go through exams one by one, take a half hour to outline an answer for it then discuss it for fifteen minutes.  this kept us motivated and helped us realize if we missed spotting issues.  I did not go through discussions about cases and crap that is irrelevant.

most importantly, learn either the IRAC or TREAT method and stick with it on the exam.  You will be taught this in your legal writing class, but be sure to follow it. 

Doing well in law school is about hard work, good luck, and innate ability.  You can control the first one only, so work your ass off. 

[Bob Loblaw Esq.]

but it still doesnt make any sense though, that you say that because they are more liberal in their admissions policy, that it makes the school bad.    if you are saying that, then you are also saying that the level of education is garbage.  so if a school only allowed 10 people per term...that would be the best school?   regardless of level of education?

as far as level of education is concered, again, that was not the argument. the argument is that the level of education is that your education at a school like cooley is significatly lower than T1 school x because of the lower level of discussion/learning in the classroom, which is many times, if not most of the time, a product of your peers responses/comments etc..

but at the same time again, having never been there, you assume that it is. (bro trust me im not saying that it is on par at all!!   )

i think that that line of thinking at this point contributes to the perception.  many people associate alot of "unqualified" students + discussion = poor conversation/poor learning for all    which may be true.  but look at your lecture classes in college.  you know you had morons in there that were called on and rambled about nothing.  did that limit your education?  i would look towards the prof to actively navigate around those morons once they have outted themselves.   and you will have idealist in all classes that think the world should think like them and want to argue with everyone that doesnt.  T1 schools or otherwise.

I do not think that I am assuming to much by saying that the level of conversation in the classroom is lower at a random T4 than it might be at a higher ranked school. Not that my personal experience is 100% accurate, but I noticed a significant difference between the level of classroom discussions at the T2 that I attended for 1L at the T25 that I am at now.  My guess is that the same is true for a school like cooley.

I think you may be confusing a general lower level of learning in the classroom with "morons in there that were called on and rambled about nothing."  You will run across this type of student at any school, be it T4 or T1, but thats not the point.  The point that i'm trying to make is that at a school like cooley, I would argue the overall level of classroom conversation/learning is lower than that of a higher ranked school because a significant portion of the class is made up of lower caliber students. 

[dewayne_wayne]

so then, as a help, and to a person that is not in classes yet, position myself for top 5%.  what is it that i need to do?  studying is a given!  but are groups better or worse?  are they like girls, you have to run through a few to find the one that a snug fit?   and even if you say, well you are a lost cause since you are going to cooley, then give me the tools i will need to be there so i can transfer?!     hows that.  im just trying to steer the comments from ragging and ridiculing to assistance.   (and telling me to kill myself or quit is not acceptable!)

Help for you:
1. Can you go to another school this fall?
2. Can you wait, retake lsat, and reapply - and then go to another school next year?
3. Top 5% as a transfer plan - people learn differently so figure out how you learn and teach yourself.  Practice exams are important during your first year, they will help you properly solve the problems.  Figure out how to synthesize the information, that may sound abstract, but you can reduce cases, arguments, policies, and law to their "gist."  And that will help you.  I am graduating in a few weeks, and I still see a couple of my peers taking dictation in class, and that is a huge waste of time. 
4. Top 5% is idealistic and should be your approach, but should not be your plan.  Your plan should include a 1/3 chance of failing out of school because those are the odds you face, and that is why it is important to go to another school.
5. Good luck.

[OkinawanLawyer]

i understand the criticism, trust me.  i got it the first time.   and I also understand a situation arising where just because you want to be something, doesnt mean you either will be or should be.   i get that, i have always got that.  And i am aware of the summer conditional programs and their purpose.  the fact that law schools use this ranking system which is flawed also creates more bias than the actual school.  Im sure i will understand exactly what everyone is saying once i start.   the only person i am worried about is myself.  and i believe that the attrition rate wont apply to me because i am and was never a terrible student.  I have to hold fast to the belief that the attrition rate is because those people that are morons just cant cut it.    if you cant tie your shoes and there is a test on tying your shoes, guess what, you will fail.  i wouldnt think that the curriculum isnt any more or less than anywhere else. its just as you said, the person is a moron.    

LAW IS HARD.   right?  well so is algebra...for me.   i failed every single algebra class i have ever been in.  yet i convinced my college advisor to allow me to take calc to by pass it, and i made an A    (took and dropped Alg 5 times in college)     my mind is geared differently.   I know i could handle any t-1 school, but my college GPA not my lsat scores are why i didnt get in.  i honestly dont think anyone even read my PS.  or they thought that it was so jacked that they didnt believe me!  (which i was afraid of)  I dug such a hole that it was damn near impossible to get out.  but i did. and because of it, i went into business for myself.  all of my cpa buddies got price waterhouse and deloite jobs and i got nada.  so i went to business for myself, and killed it!!   for years!   head injuries from car crash jacked up my school in later years, and got straight F's for a whole year straight, because i didnt realize i couldnt read anymore.  took time off, got fixed and replaced every F with an A (not a b or c but an A)   but cum GPA was in the *&^%!      admissions couldnt care less.    there is no excuse for getting an F.  so to *&^% school i go.  I deal with lawyers every day, and it was most of them that told me to go back to school to get my law degree.   which is what i was going to do when i was in school the first time.    life, fiance murdered, car accident..alot of *&^% screwed it up.   ive made well over a million dollars in the last 8 years, but im going back to school.  i graduated in 2000.  yet im judged on my grades when i was 24.  im 33 now.     fair or unfair, this is what it is.  

i did decent on my lsat dispite getting my car stolen the day before (really, dont laugh!  it screwed me right up!)   and although i did get into other schools, im going to cooley.    good bad or not, thats where im going.

now, i could care less about the later on shits, its the right nows that im worried about.  

thanks for the info regarding the study habits.....i do have one question....Comps in classes.  good or bad?  and with that, what is it that people are doing with them?  just typing notes?  entering the briefs or outlines?  since i have heard profs not liking notebooks in classes, how should one use them to their benefit?

thanks for the help to those that are giving it.

[OkinawanLawyer]

so then, as a help, and to a person that is not in classes yet, position myself for top 5%.  what is it that i need to do?  studying is a given!  but are groups better or worse?  are they like girls, you have to run through a few to find the one that a snug fit?   and even if you say, well you are a lost cause since you are going to cooley, then give me the tools i will need to be there so i can transfer?!     hows that.  im just trying to steer the comments from ragging and ridiculing to assistance.   (and telling me to kill myself or quit is not acceptable!)

Help for you:
1. Can you go to another school this fall?
2. Can you wait, retake lsat, and reapply - and then go to another school next year?
3. Top 5% as a transfer plan - people learn differently so figure out how you learn and teach yourself.  Practice exams are important during your first year, they will help you properly solve the problems.  Figure out how to synthesize the information, that may sound abstract, but you can reduce cases, arguments, policies, and law to their "gist."  And that will help you.  I am graduating in a few weeks, and I still see a couple of my peers taking dictation in class, and that is a huge waste of time. 
4. Top 5% is idealistic and should be your approach, but should not be your plan.  Your plan should include a 1/3 chance of failing out of school because those are the odds you face, and that is why it is important to go to another school.
5. Good luck.

not starting is not an option for me.  not at all.  I can still go to FIU in miami but im not going to go.  im starting now.  not sure of FIU's rank but im more worried about the international program than i am about anything else.    as for the study habits, i understand that, and thanks for the info.  I have been reading alot to get my ming prepared.  currently im moving all my stuff in my place right now, so i have been taking a few days off.  moving up to e-lansing tuesday.   but i have been studying and studying.  i might even be reading more than i need to, but thats what i do.  as for taking the LSAT again, not an option.     i will finish in 2.5 years whether i transfer or not.  as for the level of discussion, im pretty good at eliminating BS from relevant material.  banking is more about paying attention to trends and knowing how to work quickly and critically within regulations and rules.    on your own!