Thomas Cooley Students

[Lawbster]

The real question is this:

Better investment, Cooley JD or 150,000 Powerball tickets?

[OkinawanLawyer]

you are not getting my point.   im not talking about the resume.  if thats the case, then lets leave HLS out..and insert whatever T2 school.    same issue applies.  basically you are saying that not only the quality of the education is better (and im not saying that its not necessarily) but say all of the fundamentals are taught at each school.  The grading is subjective of course, but the information is fundamentally the same.  the only difference is the perceived quality of the students based upon their undergrad grades and lsat score...(lsat score to me is the only applicable evaluation tool)  and their family name...sometimes. 

I went to school in japan growing up. (i am american)  our education was 100000000% better than any in american public school and most private.  If a kid grows up in a private school, gets good grades like most kids should, their parents pay out the ass for it, then get a good recommendation to a top notch school.  go thru and since they dont have any life issues to have to worry about because their parents set them up (cant complain about that, wish i had that).  they did good at school like they should have, then with good named school that they probably didnt have to pay for themselves, and average grades...3.5+  they are able to get into HLS because their pops or moms is a professional and is able to surround that kid with people that can help him score really well...like the tutors in the Firm that helped TC pass the bar.   

now you tell me how that student is Better than a kid that went to a state school...busted his ass, but has a kid and had to work 40+ hours a week.  made good grades in college, but it took him a little longer because of family obligations.  took lsat, and scored eeehh..a 160 or 164    for whatever reason that dude has to go to cooley.   they are giving him money and he still has to work, but the amount of money he is getting enables him to work only parttime and still be able to take care of his fam.     

the second dude is garbage?    the first guy is inherently better?    the first dude who doesnt have mommy and daddy around doesnt do as good, but still finishes with a 2.3 and the other dude finishes with a 3.7.     

ok the people doing the hiring also came from the same background as the first guy, so they hire him.   the second guy finishes in the top 3% of his class.  but he doesnt come from ease like the first guy.   he also applies to the place.  he isnt hired because he is a worker bee.

does that make the second guy inherently worse than the first guy?  are you telling me that a 3.7 is not better than a 2.3?  are you telling me that the first guy getting the 2.3 could make a 4.0 at cooley?  are you telling me that the 3.7 guy couldnt do that at harvard?   

i know the school name is key.  and i never said that i wont transfer either..im a professional, so i understand the complexities of where you did your education...im well aware.  but what i have a problem with is those people that are posting on webforums all over the web that never went to cooley, are in T1 schools, and douchebagishly talk about how what they are or where they go is better than even attending in the first place.   anyone that says that is a moron in my opinion!  point blank.  flame me all you like. but the fact remains, if you have never lived a life, then you will never understand that sometimes life throws you a curve.   if you are 20 or 24 or whatever and have never done or accomplished anything but making a turd that is so long that you take a picture of it or you have to call your friends so they can see it....then i feel sorry for you.   you do people a disservice by telling people that their school will suck so much that you might as well not even go.   maybe someone should have told your parents that they shouldnt have had sex because their kid was going to grow up and be a feminine hygiene product!     neither listened...so deal with the decision or mistake that people made. 

I will be at cooley in a few weeks.  i will from day one be politic-ing all over the world because i know how.  If the consensus is that i need to leave, then i will.  if i feel like the quality of my education is garbage compared to my peers at other schools, then i will leave.   if you are looking at the school that gets you a job the easiest, then you deserve that easy ass job.  I on the other hand will be doing  ACTUAL work.  I speak 4 languages.   does that make your harvard law degree better than ME?  nope.  does it not...nope either.

just check yourself is all im saying.    because unless you are actually doing the hiring, you arent saying sh*t!

[Lawbster]

you are not getting my point.   im not talking about the resume.  if thats the case, then lets leave HLS out..and insert whatever T2 school.    same issue applies.  basically you are saying that not only the quality of the education is better (and im not saying that its not necessarily) but say all of the fundamentals are taught at each school.  The grading is subjective of course, but the information is fundamentally the same.  the only difference is the perceived quality of the students based upon their undergrad grades and lsat score...(lsat score to me is the only applicable evaluation tool)  and their family name...sometimes. 

I went to school in japan growing up. (i am american)  our education was 100000000% better than any in american public school and most private.  If a kid grows up in a private school, gets good grades like most kids should, their parents pay out the ass for it, then get a good recommendation to a top notch school.  go thru and since they dont have any life issues to have to worry about because their parents set them up (cant complain about that, wish i had that).  they did good at school like they should have, then with good named school that they probably didnt have to pay for themselves, and average grades...3.5+  they are able to get into HLS because their pops or moms is a professional and is able to surround that kid with people that can help him score really well...like the tutors in the Firm that helped TC pass the bar.   

now you tell me how that student is Better than a kid that went to a state school...busted his ass, but has a kid and had to work 40+ hours a week.  made good grades in college, but it took him a little longer because of family obligations.  took lsat, and scored eeehh..a 160 or 164    for whatever reason that dude has to go to cooley.   they are giving him money and he still has to work, but the amount of money he is getting enables him to work only parttime and still be able to take care of his fam.     

the second dude is garbage?    the first guy is inherently better?    the first dude who doesnt have mommy and daddy around doesnt do as good, but still finishes with a 2.3 and the other dude finishes with a 3.7.     

ok the people doing the hiring also came from the same background as the first guy, so they hire him.   the second guy finishes in the top 3% of his class.  but he doesnt come from ease like the first guy.   he also applies to the place.  he isnt hired because he is a worker bee.

does that make the second guy inherently worse than the first guy?  are you telling me that a 3.7 is not better than a 2.3?  are you telling me that the first guy getting the 2.3 could make a 4.0 at cooley?  are you telling me that the 3.7 guy couldnt do that at harvard?   

i know the school name is key.  and i never said that i wont transfer either..im a professional, so i understand the complexities of where you did your education...im well aware.  but what i have a problem with is those people that are posting on webforums all over the web that never went to cooley, are in T1 schools, and douchebagishly talk about how what they are or where they go is better than even attending in the first place.   anyone that says that is a moron in my opinion!  point blank.  flame me all you like. but the fact remains, if you have never lived a life, then you will never understand that sometimes life throws you a curve.   if you are 20 or 24 or whatever and have never done or accomplished anything but making a turd that is so long that you take a picture of it or you have to call your friends so they can see it....then i feel sorry for you.   you do people a disservice by telling people that their school will suck so much that you might as well not even go.   maybe someone should have told your parents that they shouldnt have had sex because their kid was going to grow up and be a feminine hygiene product!     neither listened...so deal with the decision or mistake that people made. 

I will be at cooley in a few weeks.  i will from day one be politic-ing all over the world because i know how.  If the consensus is that i need to leave, then i will.  if i feel like the quality of my education is garbage compared to my peers at other schools, then i will leave.   if you are looking at the school that gets you a job the easiest, then you deserve that easy ass job.  I on the other hand will be doing  ACTUAL work.  I speak 4 languages.   does that make your harvard law degree better than ME?  nope.  does it not...nope either.

just check yourself is all im saying.    because unless you are actually doing the hiring, you arent saying sh*t!

wtf dude? Who's talking about people being BETTER than other people?

One school is better than the other because it has more opportunities upon graduation. A HYS grad can walk out at the bottom of the class and still get biglaw while a Cooley student has trouble doing that same thing from the top 10%.

Thus, a better degree is a BETTER INVESTMENT.

Combine that with the fact that it's tougher to get into better schools (better numbers required, which require more work and intelligence), and it can be reasonably asserted that smarter people go to better schools.

People can do what they want and make their own choices. If someone can't do any better than Cooley, it doesn't make them "garbage" as you like to say, it makes them poor decision makers. The same way someone who spends $150k on a lottery ticket with a 10% chance of winning is a poor decision maker.

Also, I promise you billing 2400 hours in biglaw is not easy. It sucks. The only difference is that we get compensated highly for the work. On top of that, we get the recognition of working on M&As and such that matter and are highly publicized.

I don't understand why you think you're better than people because you didn't do as well in life and "can speak 4 languages." I speak 3, worked my butt off in UG, got a great Fulbright scholarship in a competitive country, etc. Yet I don't think I'm better than anyone, I just applied myself.

[NeverTrustKlingons]

To disclose fully -- I am a T3 student trying to transfer and had similar beliefs to yours (oh, -my- credentials will make me stand out here).  They don't.  Most JD students have something at least a little spiffy about them.

Networking is not a cure-all: you have to have something to offer in order to 'network.'  Your languages are undeniably an asset, but you will face - as I have - a very real discrimination against T3/T4.

[OkinawanLawyer]

like i said, i understand the complexities of what school you go to.  And im not misguided to the understanding that a bigger named school will open better opportunities.  maybe where we are missing is, im talking about those douchebags that want to clown people for going to cooley versus not going at all.  the inference is that those people.....and you have inferred it yourself, that people that go are flawed, not as good, made poor decisions and will continue to, and that the school is so terrible, that people wonder why its even open.  this line of thinking only stems from its liberal admissions policy and its high attrition rate.

my biggest point unless i wasnt making it clear enough, is telling people (regardless of what events in life caused them to have to go to cooley) that are going, that they would be better off not going at all.  thats complete SH*T!   those people that cannot go anywhere else will go, suffer the BS that people like most of you will have inferred about them (us) and its your bias against people that are going to go there, that makes it so hard for people from cooley to get jobs.  Say you T1 dudes on your first day, not only get a job at BigLaw, but they make you President in charge of hiring other grads.  Without ever even working a day as a practicing attorney, but you are given the task of hiring 10 new law grads.   what do you do?   say you get a pool of 50 grads.   all the HLS grads are at the bottom of their classes.  all the YLS grads are pretty close in their respective classes, and all the cooley grads are in top 25%.    15/15/20 respectively.    two HLS and YLS grads are at the top of their classes, yet they want to practice tax law only and you are a criminal law firm (whatever?)   

are you still biased against cooley because they are cooley grads and you hold the belief that they are worse than the worse of anywhere else...mind you that you have never worked a day in your life.

if so, then you are the reason the trend is what it is.   Big named schools do nothing in the real world.   its the individual.  HLS or YLS might open a hell of a lot of doors, but if the kat given the opportunity doesnt measure up, then whats his worth?   and the next guy?  is that person given more rope to hang himself because he is a HLS grad?    that HLS grad might be a better attorney, might not be.   you dont know that.   so although i will never go to HARVARD..but at the same time, maybe i could..i didnt apply there, i do know that if i was given the opportunity, I would do just as good as the person that is there now.   

the flaw in your argument (hahaha  how you like them apples) is that you all think that regardless of opportunity, cooley law grads or students couldnt handle HLS.    and since HLS doesnt give people like myself the opportunity, this is an argument that will never be disproved.

[thorc954]

umm.. first, if i was hiring, and there were ten spots and ten cooley attorneys in the top 25% of the class, I wouldnt hire any of those cooley grads.  I would either hire the Harvard kids or find one of hundreds of other tier 1 kids in the top 25% of their class that are still looking for jobs.

The fact is, cooley is a terrible school for extremely subpar students.  Regardless of what bad *&^% happened during your life, there are plenty of people at t14 and t20 law schools that have had just as tough a time and were able to get over it and get through it.  Not everyone at good schools is an elitist from a really well-off and connected family.  I went to a private school for undergrad, because I pulled a 4.0 in high school and spent 60 dollars on a prep course for the SATs and as a result got nearly a full scholarship to the university.  I got exceptional grades in undergrad while working part time to make ends meet and managing two clubs.  Its not hard to do well once you stop making excuses for your short comings.

You go to cooley though and you enjoy yourself.  If you end up in the top 5% there you can compete for jobs with people in the bottom 5% of my school and, realistically, they will probably still get the job over you.  That is because they proved themselves in high school to get to college and they proved themselves there.  Why would any respectable employer give you a shot when you let your poor sob story of a life come in the way of your personal success?

[OkinawanLawyer]

not that it makes a difference, but i skipped Two grades in primary school, I played national team soccer on some of the under teams here in the 80's, I played football at oklahoma and soccer at Arizona state..I graduated high school with a 3.8 and got a 33 on my act.  and like i said, i was accepted at schools other than cooley.   As for making excuses, well ill forget i heard that....i think my situation and many others are something you clearly cannot judge.

and I never said that i wasnt going to transfer either, but i never said i was as well.    the obvious fact that you prove my point loudly states your ignorance.  you have no idea what i scored on my lsat, you assume that i did poorly because of where i am going.  you assume my judgement is poor because dispite being accepted to other schools, i still chose cooley.  and using an obvious logic trap, you still proved me to be dead correct.  and being that you cannot read, because i didnt say the top 25% at HLS or YLS i said bottom of the class.  and i said only 2 people from YLS and HLS each were among the top 25%.   you did not have a choice of any other T1 school, you only had those three to choose from.   

now being a successful business owner that i am/was, and regardless of where I went to school, you sir are clearly terrible at management and decision making.  this is something NO school can teach.  you either have it or you dont.   only fundamentals can be taught, and they are theory only.  which again proves my point.  for all your named schools, the one key factor is the person.  in this hypothetical exercise, you did terribly (of course you will say you didnt really participate)  but by trying to give an answer, you in fact put it to thought, meaning that you did.   and you clearly sucked at it.  What school did you do your undergrad at?  because i wanna steer people clear of that school; they obviously did a terrible job and i would want to make sure when i again put my practice back to work, that i dont hire anyone from your school.   the big difference between me and you, is you are a representative and proved that your knowledge was incomplete at best, where as in my example to you, you didnt have any representation.  you went off of bias.   you cant even follow instructions!      its obvious that you are hoping the T1 status of your school is going to get you a job, but i hope and pray that your mentor likes you, because as soon as they realize that you cannot follow instructions, im sure they will fire you, and probably not hire anyone from your school again.....right?

look, the point again i was making is telling a person to not go to school; to not follow their dream of being an attorney is a ass of a thing to do.  everyone likes to think where they go is the best, fine and good, but since you do not know the situation that led to the reason why anyone went to any school, you shouldnt tell a person to not go, just because they dont go to your class of school.   thats all im saying.

to be honest, i might transfer....i probably will.   and i probably could have gotten into a better school next year, but you know what, if i do start now, I am getting a year down, and if i transfer, i will not lose time, and still graduate on schedule.   I didnt apply to very many, and i only was rejected to one.  my reasons for going were not because i scored a 145 on my lsat...i scored much better than that.  but my reasons are my biz.   if you have gone, and you didnt like it, then great, im sure ill find out what that reason was, if it was educationally based.   opportunity wise as well, im sure ill fine out better.  No school wants their students to transfer so im sure ill get some friction when and if i do transfer.  but as a person that hasnt stepped foot in class yet, speaking to people that have never stepped foot in the damn state of michigan....id STFU, because it makes you sound really ridiculous!

with my background, i dont plan on being anywhere other than top 5% (not being cocky, just thats my steelo)  and when I transfer, I dont plan on being anywhere but in the top 5% of that school.   and if you think that because im going to cooley for the time being, that that excludes me from ever scoring higher than that at any other school, HLS, YLS, or otherwise, makes you sound like a feminine hygiene product!   plain and simple.

[mike4488]

Sorry man, but I have a feeling you are going to be seriously disappointed.  You are quite immature for a business owner to begin with.  Also, owning a business and practicing law and not the same thing.  One doesn't make you good at the other.  Go to law school and do you best but if you think you will definitely be in the top 5% of your class you should research a little bit more about law school.  That is an idiotic statement.  Also, you probably shouldn't count on transferring.  That is never a guarantee and even less so out of Cooley.  Not being rude or shooting down dreams or what not but there is also not point in lying about how great Cooley is.

[Lawbster]

umm.. first, if i was hiring, and there were ten spots and ten cooley attorneys in the top 25% of the class, I wouldnt hire any of those cooley grads.  I would either hire the Harvard kids or find one of hundreds of other tier 1 kids in the top 25% of their class that are still looking for jobs.

The fact is, cooley is a terrible school for extremely subpar students.  Regardless of what bad *&^% happened during your life, there are plenty of people at t14 and t20 law schools that have had just as tough a time and were able to get over it and get through it.  Not everyone at good schools is an elitist from a really well-off and connected family.  I went to a private school for undergrad, because I pulled a 4.0 in high school and spent 60 dollars on a prep course for the SATs and as a result got nearly a full scholarship to the university.  I got exceptional grades in undergrad while working part time to make ends meet and managing two clubs.  Its not hard to do well once you stop making excuses for your short comings.

You go to cooley though and you enjoy yourself.  If you end up in the top 5% there you can compete for jobs with people in the bottom 5% of my school and, realistically, they will probably still get the job over you.  That is because they proved themselves in high school to get to college and they proved themselves there.  Why would any respectable employer give you a shot when you let your poor sob story of a life come in the way of your personal success?

You're arguing with flame, dude. No one is as dense as this guy. Give it up.

[OkinawanLawyer]

ok.  and thats not prob.   maybe i will be dissappointed.  the issue is not with me, its with you.  i could be making a colossal mistake!  i understand that.  and you have no idea how i am as a business owner, or accountant.  But thats neither here nor there.  again, the point i am making is that telling a person to not go to school regardless of what you feel about the school is asinine.   if you go to "ballin-outta-control" university, then great.  but telling a person that they are *&^% because they are going to a school that you dont like is stupid.    if you really cared, then you would make a statement like:   look bro, you are probably not going to like it there.  the level of education, the access to employment afterwards and the horrible ranking are going to limit you.  now i dont know what kind of student you are, but if you can keep your grades above everyone else's, id seriously look into putting as much effort you did trying to get into school into trying to get out of that one.

then the question of why comes out...

and you say, well as a current student, the Tier system, as unfair and as biased as it may be, is what and how you are judged.  because of the terrible reputation the school has earned over the years, it has an incredible impact on your prospects after graduating.  its almost close to graduating from a non accredited school in its acceptance around the nation.

then yadda yadda yadda.....

you think im trying to big up cooley and im not, the same could be said of about 20 other T4 school when compared to the t-1 schools some of you go to.     do more helping if you really care.  if you dont, then telling people that they are *&^% for going to a school you wouldnt dream of going to, AFTER YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN ACCEPTED is kind of female dog-ish to me.