Phoenix School of Law

[thorc954]

blue horse,

I forgot two things.  There is a slight typo on you bio in the sentence about your law review article.  And, I wanted to thank you for your service to our country.  It is very much appreciated sir.

[Nimmy]

This seems like a school that I would diss without any knowledge, but I have a friend at Phoenix and he is loving it.  He loves the school, and while I'm extremely worried about his job prospects after graduation, he is very confident.

[Dr. Balsenschaft]

ps. if you have any pull at the school at all, you may want to work on getting the name changed.  It sounds way too much like university of phoenix online which in itself may lead students to be hesitant of the quality of education.

This is a good point.  I actually thought this thread was about that online school. 

[mpzreb17]

Sorry to bump an old post. They were fully accredited in June of 2010 by the ABA. So my question is for all these folks who said they attended 2 years ago, was it worth the debt load at graduation, did you find a job? What about people who might be looking to come in just for a law degree (couldnt get into Ole Miss) without the intention of practicing in Arizona? Is it respectable yet? I'm going anyway, I just feel really weird about taking out 180 in loans for an unranked school.

-M

[bigs5068]

Don't worry about the rankings they are literally a joke see this articles from LSAC. http://www.lsac.org/JD/Choose/deans-speak-out-rankings.asp . http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Research/GR/GR-07-02.pdf . Realize U.S. News system is not approved by the ABA or AALS or any organization it is a for-profit magazines subjective opinion and this is the formula.

40% of the ranking is based on lawyers & academics marking a scantron from 1-5. So some judge in Florida marks a 2 for Phoenix and has never been to Phoenix law school or knows anyone from there. This is simply retarded there is no other way to put it unless you are rating the top 20 or so schools. There is no way for a judge in Spokane to determine whether Washburn is better than Florida International. This makes up 40% of the ranking.

20% is based on job placement, which would be a good criteria except for the fact that "placement" could be working at McDonald's or making 200k a year. This website lawschooltransparency.com lists actual salaries so it presents some information, but by looking at this site you can see almost all law student salaries are unaccounted for.

Bar Passage, which I think it is important makes up 3%, but U.S. News doesn't seem to think passing the bar is important. LSAT score which is something that makes sense to measure law schools by makes up only 12.5%   GPA makes up 10%, which is a decent measure, but students can manipulate GPA getting a 4.0 in religious studies or theory of basketball is more impressive to this magazine than a 3.2 in molecular biology and I think understanding molecular biology is more impressive than theory of basketball or basket weaving or whatever b.s. major a student could use to manipulate the magazine. I did this in undergrad and got a ton of scholarship money for law school.

Faculty resources make up 15% of the ranking which makes sense. This formula is all see on page 5 of this article. http://www.lsac.org/LsacResources/Research/GR/GR-07-02.pdf

The methodology is flawed and as a result of this outside of the "top" schools they jump 10-20 spots in any given year and the magazine has basically given up trying to be credible by placing every school in a tie and my personal favorite is the current 11 way tie for 84th place. You can see the ties here. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+4

Needles to say the rankings are irrelevant when considering non-elite schools and for your purposes don't worry about them. Obviously,  Harvard is a damn good law school and Phoenix is not on par with it and I assume you know that. However, Phoenix is an ABA school and at any law school you will learn the law. You will read supreme court decisions, statutes, learn how to use Westlaw & Lexis, and so on. The law is the law in your first year to will take torts, property, contracts, criminal law, con law, and civil procedure. You should also consider the location if you have no desire to live in Phoenix then going to law school out there might not be the best idea. Phoenix probably won't have much reach outside of Phoenix although an ABA approved law school will allow you to be a lawyer in any state, but Phoenix is not going to wow employers and you going to bear the burden of starting your legal career.

Also remember any type of education is a LONG-TERM investment. If you go to law school you will have the ability to practice law the rest of your life and the money part will work itself out. So the real question is whether you want to be a lawyer or not if you have a burning desire to be a lawyer then go to law school. If your doing it for the sake of doing it then 3 years of your life and 180k won't be a good idea.

Sorry for the long rant, but I myself was overly worried about the rankings etc when choosing a law school, but it really comes down to common sense. Law school teachers you the law and odds are you are going to be end up working where you go to law school. Also realize when going to a non-elite school nothing will be handed to you, but you can definitely succeed. Hopefully something in there was useful and good luck to you.

[fortook]

Dude, 180K?  Holy crap!  That should scare you.

[Master Mech.]

Considering the July 2011 bar exam results are in and Phoenix School of Law test takers had a 61% pass rate speaks volumes!  The bar results along with a letter from Dean Mays and a former student was published.  You can find it if you do a google search. 

From a contract standpoint, PSL owes paying students a duty to teach the law, something they are obviously not doing under the present administration.  Phoenix School of Law undoubtedly has some great professors, but as a whole, they are seriously under-performing.

From a student perspective, I'd consider going elsewhere because the tuition is over $21,000 when you add in all the fees and costs, and the ABA will place their accreditation on probation, coupled with the fact that their January bar takers have historically shown poor bar performance, it is likely that they will loose accreditation.  But beyond that, it will definitely be harder to find a job with such poor performance as again, it speaks VOLUMES about the curriculum, quality of professors and most of all leadership.

[Master Mech.]

Seriously, I'd consider going to a better school.  I know several students that have gone there, are there, and have transferred out.  There are other options for school in AZ.

[fortook]

Isn't the only other school in AZ, Arizona State, Sandra Day's school?  Are you a disgruntled student?  I'm not saying your wrong about Phoenix, btw.  I really don't know too much about the school.  61% it harsh. 

[Master Mech.]

No.

There is ASU and UofA. 

Simple google search would uncover what AZ schools there are.  Word has it University of Phoenix is going to start an online law school.