T3 $$$ to Wisco vs Indiana-Bloomington $ to Wisco

[gratif]

Transfer applicants are generally accepted only when they rank within the top 15% of their classes, depending on the quality of the law school from which they are applying. Enrollment pressures force a limit on the number of transfer applicants that can be accepted, generally ranging from 2-5 annually. The competitiveness in any given year depends on the overall quality of the applicant pool and available space. Preference is given to Wisconsin residents who apply for transfer on the basis of strong academic showing at another law school.

How much easier are we talking?  I'm from Wisconsin.  And I know it'll be tough either way.  And I know passing up the T1 for T3$$$ is inadvisable, but I have no big law aspirations.  JAG gives little weight to what school you attend, and the school I'm looking at is affiliated with both Navy and Air Force ROTC detachments.  Conveiniently, those are the branches that award JAG commissions before you've even completed 1L.

If I don't make it, I'd seriously consider dropping out with only 8K or so in debt. 

I know it's a risky move, I'm just trying to callibrate how risky.  Input please.

[Ronald Hyatt]

go to bloomy

don't start 1L planning on transferring. go to a school you would like to graduate from.
don't ever assume you will do better at a lower ranked school.
assume you will do average no matter where you go.
if you do average at bloomy you are in a much better position than average at a T3, even with $$$.
bloomy and wisconsin about about equal, i'd say. roughly the same ranking. both good midwest schools.

[gratif]

transfering isn't something I *expect*, but with in-state tuition, I gotta try.  I'm fairly certain that I'd like the twin cities if I don't make JAG, anyways.

Can you quantify the % increase in liklihood that Indiana gives me over St. Thomas?

[vercingetorix]

if you want to live in the twin cities, then i would go to UST.  there is a lot to be said for minimizing your debt.  besides UST has already defied expectations debuting at T3.  it is a solid school with an established alumni network in minneapolis (the business school has graduates in every major company there from multinationals like 3M, Cargill, Northwest, General Mills and Hormel to smaller companies like Honeywell).  its law graduates although fewer in number already work outside the midwest (although you have to assume your best bet is in the cities) and in the big firms in minneapolis (to include Whitney a Vault 100).  even if you don't make JAG i don't see why UST cannot lead to a fruitful career in a great city.  one word of caution...although i think your JAG aspirations are plausible i would not go around mentioning your goals to become a Colonel or flag officer, or the civilian payoff of reaching 0-6 and above in the military to the OSO or to your peers.  as a guy who just got out as an O-3 (Marine, pilot with a few JAG pals) the correct answer is always "i've always wanted to do what i can to help out my country".  careerism is the surest way to retiring as a bitter O-4

[Ronald Hyatt]

Employment stats from ABA Data:

IU - Bloomington

Employment | Total | Percentage
Employment status known | 201 | 97.6
Employment status unknown | 5 | 2.4
Employed | 185 | 92.0
Pursuing graduate degrees | 4 | 2.0
Unemployed seeking employment | 3 | 1.5
Unemployed not seeking employment | 7 | 3.5
Unemployed and studying for the bar | 2 | 1.0

Type of Employment
# employed in law firms | 101 | 54.6
# employed in business and industry | 25 | 13.5
# employed in government | 25 | 13.5
# employed in public interest | 6 | 3.2
# employed as judicial clerks | 16 | 8.6
# employed in academia | 8 | 4.3

Geographic Location
# employed in state | 72 | 38.9
# employed in foreign countries | 0 | 0.0
# of states where employed | 21



St. Thomas (MN)

Employment | Total | Percentage
Employment status known | 107 | 98.2
Employment status unknown | 2 | 1.8
Employed | 91 | 85.0
Pursuing graduate degrees | 1 | 0.9
Unemployed seeking employment | 8 | 7.5
Unemployed not seeking employment | 3 | 2.8
Unemployed and studying for the bar | 4 | 3.7

Type of Employment
# employed in law firms | 38 | 41.8
# employed in business and industry | 11 | 12.1
# employed in government | 7 | 7.7
# employed in public interest | 14 | 15.4
# employed as judicial clerks | 16 | 17.6
# employed in academia | 2 | 2.2

Geographic Location
# employed in state | 73 | 80.2
# employed in foreign countries | 2 | 2.2
# of states where employed | 12

[Ronald Hyatt]

if you want to live in the twin cities, then i would go to UST.  there is a lot to be said for minimizing your debt.  besides UST has already defied expectations debuting at T3.  it is a solid school with an established alumni network in minneapolis (the business school has graduates in every major company there from multinationals like 3M, Cargill, Northwest, General Mills and Hormel to smaller companies like Honeywell).  its law graduates although fewer in number already work outside the midwest (although you have to assume your best bet is in the cities) and in the big firms in minneapolis (to include Whitney a Vault 100).  even if you don't make JAG i don't see why UST cannot lead to a fruitful career in a great city.  one word of caution...although i think your JAG aspirations are plausible i would not go around mentioning your goals to become a Colonel or flag officer, or the civilian payoff of reaching 0-6 and above in the military to the OSO or to your peers.  as a guy who just got out as an O-3 (Marine, pilot with a few JAG pals) the correct answer is always "i've always wanted to do what i can to help out my country".  careerism is the surest way to retiring as a bitter O-4

Why are you such a UST troll? I don't get it.

Advising someone to go to a new T3 over an established T1 borders on negligence.

[vercingetorix]

dude, i never mentioned not going to bloomy, its a great school.  however if he wants to live in MSP and/or be a JAG, you can make a pretty good case for UST given the low debt load with which he will graduate.  he never mentions BIGLAW and so maybe UST is actually the better fit. i am a true believer that UST is a quality school and that it will soon be the #2 law school in MN.  so for guys who cannot go to the UMN and want to live in minneapolis,  i think UST is a solid choice.

[gratif]

if you want to live in the twin cities, then i would go to UST.  there is a lot to be said for minimizing your debt.  besides UST has already defied expectations debuting at T3.  it is a solid school with an established alumni network in minneapolis (the business school has graduates in every major company there from multinationals like 3M, Cargill, Northwest, General Mills and Hormel to smaller companies like Honeywell).  its law graduates although fewer in number already work outside the midwest (although you have to assume your best bet is in the cities) and in the big firms in minneapolis (to include Whitney a Vault 100).  even if you don't make JAG i don't see why UST cannot lead to a fruitful career in a great city.  one word of caution...although i think your JAG aspirations are plausible i would not go around mentioning your goals to become a Colonel or flag officer, or the civilian payoff of reaching 0-6 and above in the military to the OSO or to your peers.  as a guy who just got out as an O-3 (Marine, pilot with a few JAG pals) the correct answer is always "i've always wanted to do what i can to help out my country".  careerism is the surest way to retiring as a bitter O-4

Why are you such a UST troll? I don't get it.

Advising someone to go to a new T3 over an established T1 borders on negligence.

My current line of thought suggests that location trumps USNews rank gross disparity.  The UI-B/StTThomas might not be sufficient.  Anyways, I'm debt phobic, and if I don't make JAG, I don't think I'd wanna do Big Law.

[vercingetorix]

yeah guys like Hyatt and the USNWR lemmings only look at one dimension when it comes to electing a law school...is rep important to go into BIGLAW? yep...if you don't care about slaving away in a big firm for 90 hours a week, if you have other non-traditional track plans or if you have connections (among a host of other possibilities like tuition, family, a professor you really like/respect/admire/leads in his field)? not a chance.  most people with this narrow viewpoint come right out of undergrad and have little real world experience from which to draw (not a slam, just a fact).  they fail to note that there are a whole host of things you can do with a JD if you are smart and resourceful and many of them have about zero to do with practicing law.  the vocab, the mindset and the way of thinking are all valuable tools you pick up in law school which have applications throughout our economy.

[Ronald Hyatt]

I'd agree that location and many other considerations should often trump ranking, especially if you are talking about an insubstantial difference in ranking. I wouldn't be so quick to characterize the disparity b/w UST and IUB as insubstantial, though.

A better school will open more doors for you in any endeavor you choose, not only biglaw. Biglaw and clerkships are just the most competitive, so they provide a base for determining who gets the most competitive positions. Guess who gets 'em? You know what else, though? Students from the top schools who don't want biglaw have NO trouble getting any other kind of job and will always stand in line ahead of students from lower-ranked schools, even those with better grades.

A higher ranked school will open more doors for you. Period. Maybe you don't need those doors to be opened, because you have connections out the wahoo or you will get a full-scholarship and so you won't need to get a job, if you don't want one. I'm just saying that the undeniable truth is that higher-ranked schools will open more doors. Know this truth before you make up your mind, and there is nothing wrong with choosing UST over IUB if you are convinced UST is better for you. Just don't do it buying into all of the hype from some UST troll who doesn't even go to UST (or go to law school at all, for that matter).