U of Saint Thomas vs. William Mitchell

[taplinb]

It's down to two private schools for me - or not going at all. I got no scholarships.

St. Thomas is a good school, on a par with other 3rd/4th-tier Minnesota schools and slowly climbing (I think). How far it will climb is an unknown I cannot bank on. Otherwise, location may be the big differentiator for me, and William Mitchell is much closer to my St. Paul home. An hour in traffic is an hour lost.

I am ambivalent about the Catholic orientation of St. Thomas and not yet convinced that it churns out attorneys who are more ethical, vs. drawing students who already consider themselves ethical and behave nicely. Feel free to share any relevant stats about graduates. It's not like other schools encourage bad behavior.

Beyond encouraging grads to play nice, one way St. Thomas could promote social justice would be to lower barriers (financial) to public sector work. I cannot pay off $100k+ in school debt plus cover family needs on a token salary. Short of a scholarship, tied if necessary to doing good, I anticipate having to start in a local firm doing whatever clients need, a mercenary, and I doubt that the average client rewards niceness in a lawyer. Professionalism, sure, but that's universal. I don't see how my attending a Catholic school changes this. St. Thomas students may be nicer, but law school isn't summer camp. It's boot camp.

Sounds like I'm talking myself out of the profession, to which some may say good riddance. More to ponder, and two weeks to ponder it. Thanks, everybody, for the advice. I will read Scott Turow's "One L" before deciding on this.

[vercingetorix]

for all the reasons i've addressed in the past you should go to st. thomas.  i think you will regret going to william mitchell.  good luck.

[vercingetorix]

dude, i told you UST would debut as a T3.  it is going to be a better school than wither WM or Hamiline.

[Ronald Hyatt]

W-M moved up to T3

[vercingetorix]

W-M moved up to T3

true and good for WM.  as someone from the twin cities i can tell you that the fact UST debuted as a T3 coupled with its impressive alumni network in minneapolis/st. paul (the business community is teeming with UST MBA's) St. Thomas would be the place to go after UMN.  The fact that WM has been in and out of T4dom doesn't ensure it will stay a T3 for long...as a school it gets little respect from faculty/lawyers in the area (I cite the fact that a fully tenured professor at WM (Hamilton) bailed to go to St. Thomas as just one concrete example).

[gratif]

An hour in traffic is an hour lost.

St. Thomas has an undergrad campus in St. Paul that sends free a shuttle to the Minneapolis (law and business) campus every 20 minutes.

I am ambivalent about the Catholic orientation

Yeah, all the religios stuff is bull. But then again, so is religion.

I cannot pay off $100k+ in school debt plus cover family needs on a token salary.

If you're going to law school with some vague notion of public service life is going to kick you in the teeth.  Repeatedly.  Your dreams will be crushed against the rocks of reality that come with a six figure debt.  Credit: Tucker Max.

I will read Scott Turow's "One L" before deciding on this.

One L is way outdated.  Read this whole thread:
http://%22http//messageboard.tuckermax.com/showpost.php?p=293787&postcount=24"

[Fener2]

To suggest that William Mitchell is not respected by local lawyers or professors shows a shocking naivete about the legal Twin Cities legal market.  William Mitchell has a tremendous alumni base in all sorts different legal sectors in the Twin Cities.  Take a look at the major firms, they have solid Mitchell representation, not to mention our members on the State supreme court, the state court of appeals and the current Attorney General.  One faculty member leaving really doesn't seem to discount any of this.  William Mitchell has been a sold Tier 3 for a while, it's slip to T4 was not the norm.  Hiring seven new faculty shows that the school is by no means hurting.  Particularly impressive is the IP curriculum (which includes the author a treatise and a new hiring of a major international patent figure).  I am not saying the school does not have its flaws, it is no the U of M and does not pretend to be.  But I find this smack talking from St. Thomas students a bit presumptious.  I have heard many fine things about your school, I know you have some top notch faculty and I have seen your great building.  I am happy that you opened at Tier 3.  But for you to suggest that you are leagues better than Mitchell just a few years into your existence is really not something you can support.  I am sure St. Thomas will use its deep pockets to build a solid alumni base, I just resent misinformation being spread about my school (that it is not respected).  Mitchell has the alumni and the backing to keep its solid rep, if anything it will be Hamline squeezed out (which has some fine programs as well, just less money).  I am merely concerned that new St. Thomas students feel the need to denigrate other area law schools in such an arrogant and erroneous fashion.  I am sure this is not the norm, but only the reflection of those individuals that have done so here.

[VitaminE]

To suggest that William Mitchell is not respected by local lawyers or professors shows a shocking naivete about the legal Twin Cities legal market.  William Mitchell has a tremendous alumni base in all sorts different legal sectors in the Twin Cities.  Take a look at the major firms, they have solid Mitchell representation, not to mention our members on the State supreme court, the state court of appeals and the current Attorney General.  One faculty member leaving really doesn't seem to discount any of this.  William Mitchell has been a sold Tier 3 for a while, it's slip to T4 was not the norm.  Hiring seven new faculty shows that the school is by no means hurting.  Particularly impressive is the IP curriculum (which includes the author a treatise and a new hiring of a major international patent figure).  I am not saying the school does not have its flaws, it is no the U of M and does not pretend to be.  But I find this smack talking from St. Thomas students a bit presumptious.  I have heard many fine things about your school, I know you have some top notch faculty and I have seen your great building.  I am happy that you opened at Tier 3.  But for you to suggest that you are leagues better than Mitchell just a few years into your existence is really not something you can support.  I am sure St. Thomas will use its deep pockets to build a solid alumni base, I just resent misinformation being spread about my school (that it is not respected).  Mitchell has the alumni and the backing to keep its solid rep, if anything it will be Hamline squeezed out (which has some fine programs as well, just less money).  I am merely concerned that new St. Thomas students feel the need to denigrate other area law schools in such an arrogant and erroneous fashion.  I am sure this is not the norm, but only the reflection of those individuals that have done so here.

I concur.

[vercingetorix]

i do not go to UST (i will start school at UWisc in the fall).  as a pragmatist i can tell you that St. Thomas has the financial resources, the faculty and the facilities to become the #2 school in MN.  i withdraw the comment that WM attorneys are not well respected, i don't think that the comments of a few people and the departure of a couple of faculty members make a solid case for this.  if i didn't get into UMN i would go to UST...just sayin.

[Fener2]

That may well be true, but it will take a solid alumni base to become the number 2 school in Minnesota.  I am not saying I doubt that UST can build a solid alumni base, the couple people I know that go there I have nothing but respect for.  But your earlier analysis that because it has a ton of great MBA's doesn't really do much in the short term.  Let's have this conversation in a decade or so when your comments about money and facilities will have borne fruit.  At this point direct comparisons between WM and UST don't serve much practical purpose.  Right now it is apples to oranges due to the absurdity of trying to compare a school with such a long history against a very new school.  The achievements of WM grads aren't just going to become irrelevent because of a new building (WM's facilities are hardly shabby either) and deep pockets of a new institution in town.  I think UST can add a lot to the legal market in the Twin Cities, but I don't "regret" my choice to come here (which I chose over a couple tier 2's in less desirable midwestern markets).  Fair enough?  Your analysis that UST will blow by WM is conclusory at this very early stage.