Relative merits of Mitchell vs. Hamline vs. U of St. Thomas?

[Runner-up]

William Mitchell was a T3 school as recently as 2005. The rhetoric that rankings are static and that schools will be stuck in one tier "forever" is factually incorrect. The faculty at William Mitchell are very high brow for an independent law school. And, if you want factual data on where graduates go, fine. I'd more than happy to rebut the notion that this a bad school to go to for a career in the Twin Cities. That's just lethally clueless.

On the national scale, if someone is planning on looking for legal jobs outside of Minnesota with a St. Thomas law degree, that's a fairly puzzling stance to take.

Most people will retort "I've never heard of that school". They will say that three years from now and beyond. It takes a long time for a new law school to develop a following in it's own state, let alone elsewhere. And, St. Thomas is not to suspend that basic law of the jungle.

[cheeseisdelicious]

William Mitchell was a T3 school as recently as 2005. The rhetoric that rankings are static and that schools will be stuck in one tier "forever" is factually incorrect. The faculty at William Mitchell are very high brow for an independent law school. And, if you want factual data on where graduates go, fine. I'd more than happy to rebut the notion that this a bad school to go to for a career in the Twin Cities. That's just lethally clueless.

On the national scale, if someone is planning on looking for legal jobs outside of Minnesota with a St. Thomas law degree, that's a fairly puzzling stance to take.

Most people will retort "I've never heard of that school". They will say that three years from now and beyond. It takes a long time for a new law school to develop a following in it's own state, let alone elsewhere. And, St. Thomas is not to suspend that basic law of the jungle.

I recently attended a wedding with two lawyers from San Franciso and about 15 lawyers from DC, as well as a large group of Wisconsin law alumni. All of them have heard of St. Thomas.

I'm not going to bash Mitchell - I know and work with people from there and most of them enjoy the experience as a whole and have positive things to say about the school.

As for Ave Maria, I was accepted there as well - with a full scholarship and a stipend, both of which came with the stipulation that I maintain grades in the top 10% of the class. My scholarship at St. Thomas has no such requirement.

For you to continually knock on St. Thomas is pretty ridiculous given that at this point, most attorneys view it as equal to Mitchell. Like I said, I want to practice somewhere else, where Mitchell has already established a "reputation" that is not necessarily favorable. Many of the attorneys in this area went to another Catholic law school and are very open to St. Thomas because of that.

Any of the three schools being discussed will provide the original poster with fine opportunities in the Cities, which I believe is where he wants to stay. For you to claim that one has huge advantages over the other based on...um...what? is "lethally clueless." I preferred UST from the minute I decided to apply to one of the three. Others many make different decisions.

[Runner-up]

Don't take this the wrong way. I never said Mitchell had a "huge" advantage over St. Thomas in the Twin Cities or nationally. Here's the deal.

Nationally, some people will know about it. Hey, it's going to happen. But still many firms in the legal job market won't be familiar with it. I've heard some people on this board tell me horror stories about how they had to "explain" their school's reputation to employers in New York and DC. They were not just talking T3 or T4 schools. I highly doubt that would never happen with St. Thomas- unless it's some super-human institution that I'm totally unaware of.

There are attorneys on the East Coast who have heard of William Mitchell. Exactly what is the difference between Mitchell's reputation and St. Thomas's in that area? I think the difference in negligible. If I may ask, to what lengths did you go to find out what the school's respective reputations were in these areas?

I'm only asking these questions because I'm trying to teach you how to make the world work for you.

[cheeseisdelicious]

I didn't care to ask about Mitchell's reputation in the area I'll be practicing for the following reasons:

1) Any school that offers scholarships prior to application is a little insane in my book.
2) I know enough attorneys from growing up with their kids to know what the reputations of schools in other states are.
3) I wasn't interested in attending a private school if it wasn't Catholic.

I also want to go into public interest so it may be different for me than someone who is absolutely dying to do BIGLAW.

Don't assume you know more than me, runner-up - you're a 1L and I understand that you still think you are master and commander of the law, but you are a 1L at a comparable school to mine with what appears to be significantly worse grades than my 1L grades were.

[Underqualified]

Anyone wishing to practice out-of-state (other than Wisconsin) should not attend UST.  Hell, the U of Mn hardly has a reputation out-of-state.  Whoever posted that they went to UST to practice out-of-state is wasting money.  When the lawyers said they heard of UST, perhaps they were thinking of the Florida school.  OK its not nice to suggest that education is a waste, but really, UST will be a solid MINNESOTA law school.  Building a national reputation will take more than 2-3 classes of graduating students, no matter how much money UST decides to spend.

As between UST and WM, you would be better off going to WM.  Like other people stated, there are a lot of WM people in the Minnesota legal market and they are pretty loyal to their alumni (just like Hamline).  I suspect UST alumni will follow suit but there are many more WM lawyers than UST lawyers.  As far as debuting in T2 or T3, no.  When I was looking at law schools, one UST student actually told me that it would debut in the T20.  The moral of the story is don't believe what the UST kids are telling you.  Sure, it will be competitive among the 4 local schools (I place Minnesota in this group b/c it really doesn't have that big of an advantage in the market), but WM has a higher number of contacts within the legal market and that really can't be discounted.

[Ronald Hyatt]

As far as debuting in T2 or T3, no.  When I was looking at law schools, one UST student actually told me that it would debut in the T20. 

LMFAO  What are they putting in the kool aid there? 

PS - I had never even heard of St. Thomas until this thread started.

[vercingetorix]

Anyone wishing to practice out-of-state (other than Wisconsin) should not attend UST.  Hell, the U of Mn hardly has a reputation out-of-state.  Whoever posted that they went to UST to practice out-of-state is wasting money.  When the lawyers said they heard of UST, perhaps they were thinking of the Florida school.  OK its not nice to suggest that education is a waste, but really, UST will be a solid MINNESOTA law school.  Building a national reputation will take more than 2-3 classes of graduating students, no matter how much money UST decides to spend. end quote

this is why underqualified's session name is so appropriate...anyone who claims that UMN hardly has a reputation out-of-state simply has no grasp of the facts.  simply look at the OCI process at UMN, UST, Hamline and William Mitchell....yeah UMN pretty much annihilates the three.  now look UMN up on the NALP website and compare them to UST, Hamline and William Mitchell....again it pretty much crushes them.  now look at UMN compared to some other tier 1 programs like Iowa, Wisconsin, ND, Northwestern, again on NALP.  check out the number of clerkships UMN recieves compared to UST, Hamline and William Mitchell...now compare to the other schools I listed.  now go look at Prof. Brian Leiter's study of law school academic reputations and job placement statistics  and see how UMN ranks above Notre Dame, UCLA, Emory and Washington and Lee in its normalized score for job placement in elite law firms.  couple that with the fact that UMN is ranked 19th according to USNWR.  is MN a truly national law school like the T14? no way.  but to argue that UMN "hardly has a reputation out-of-state" makes you sound like a moron.  as if you'd gotten in there you would have stuck to whatever stripmall paralegal college you currently attend.

[Underqualified]

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FYI, I went to the U of Mn.  Im not trashing the school, I'm just being real.  Look at the placement statistics again.  Fact is, few people in the legal community outside of Minneapolis hold the school in high regard.  The only two midwest schools which have a national reputation are Chicago and Northwestern.  How many LA or NY firms came to OCIs this year? 

[LibertyBell]

I know this is sort of a pre-law question (except for transfers), but readers of the pre-law board would not necessarily know any more than I do. You would know, so... which Minnesota school would you pick and why? I have been dinged from U of MN so it's down to those three.

My question would be whether you are committed to going to school in the cities or are you committed to working in the cities when you are done?  I ask bcause there are a ton of otehr schools within the region that are rated higher than the three that you have listed who still have great hireability in the cities.  For example, the Univeristy of North Dakota is rated higher (tier 3) than all of the three you listed (all tier 4) and has strong alumni in the area.  UND is also much cheaper (only 15k a year)...  Iowa, Wisconsin and SD all have schools in the area as well.

If you are limiting yourself just to those schools, I would advise against Hamline.  Out of the 4 schools in the cities, Hamline is the only one that I have heard bad things about...

Either way you go, good luck.

[vercingetorix]

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FYI, I went to the U of Mn.  Im not trashing the school, I'm just being real.  Look at the placement statistics again.  Fact is, few people in the legal community outside of Minneapolis hold the school in high regard.  The only two midwest schools which have a national reputation are Chicago and Northwestern.  How many LA or NY firms came to OCIs this year? 

dude, i'm simply pointing out that your facts are incorrect, perhaps you should look at the placement statistics again...go to www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/bleiter/rankings/03_most_national.html and take another look.  the NALP website also offers some pretty compelling stats in favor of UMN.  finally the school is ranked inside the top 20 according to USNWR...although i admit (and stated in my previous post) that UMN is not a national school, it certainly has a national reputation...if you tell people you got a jd from UMN you're not going to get the same blank stare in boston you would get if you told that same person you got a jd from Hamline or William Mitchell. period. and the facts support this.  let's see your stats which refute mine.