Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...  (Read 21907 times)

Sako

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2007, 08:14:03 PM »
the baby bar is not hard, the reason the pass rates are soo low is that DL and non aba schools admit anyone with a credit card. The whole I will pass the hardest bar in the nation argument is moot as very few dls ever pass the bar.  Just do the math a huge portion do not pass the baby bar and of those that do a tiny portion pass the bar.  ...

So is your issue with all DL students who have degrees, or just the ones that don't pass the Bar?

mundo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2007, 01:27:31 PM »
my bad yet the fact remains you go to a school that gives anyone with a credit card a diploma.  You might as well go to online medical school and become a fake doctor.


I don't follow your logic here. The DL law student has to pass the same bar exam as the traditional student, regardless of the credit card limit.

Ronald Hyatt

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Hedgehog
    • View Profile
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2007, 02:06:44 PM »
passing the bar doesn't necessarily indicate that you are smart and/or a good lawyer. all it means is that you have some minimum level of competency in a handful of legal topics that most practicing lawyers forget within a few years, unless they practice in that area. in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

as with any profession, for better or worse, clients, employers, and business associates will use the name of your school  along with your accomplishments as an initial proxy for assessing your intelligence. if you go to a school that anyone with a credit card can get into, it doesn't say anything positive about your intelligence. at worst, it says that you did not even have the minimum qualifications to get into a T4 school. at best, it says that you were a busy career professional who lived a long way from an accredited law school and chose to go the DL route. i think the latter is the exception and the former makes up the vast majority. whether or not that is truly the case, the reality is that almost everyone will make the worst assumption.

this is why it is not a good idea to go to a school that "gives anyone with a credit card a diploma."
"Freedom of speech doesn't protect speech that you like, freedom of speech protects speech that you hate."
http://imdb.com/name/nm0000465/bio

Sako

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2007, 05:46:38 PM »
... in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

Since a majority of them come from ABA approved schools, we agree that ABA certification doesn't really act as an effecive screening device for the ultimate quality of the lawyer?

I do agree that for whether logical or not, the school name will carry weight.  Ultimate, you hope that competence will win the day, even if it is an up hill fight.

Ronald Hyatt

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Hedgehog
    • View Profile
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2007, 06:00:31 PM »
... in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

Since a majority of them come from ABA approved schools, we agree that ABA certification doesn't really act as an effective screening device for the ultimate quality of the lawyer?

I do agree that for whether logical or not, the school name will carry weight.  Ultimate, you hope that competence will win the day, even if it is an up hill fight.

Agreed. I would argue, however, that the percentage of crappy lawyers graduated from a particular institution increases as you slide down the scale of selectivity in admissions. So I wouldn't say that the generalizations one draws from the school's name is totally illogical on the whole. Although, as with any stereotype, a given species from within the genus might defy the presumption.
"Freedom of speech doesn't protect speech that you like, freedom of speech protects speech that you hate."
http://imdb.com/name/nm0000465/bio

veganvenus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2007, 05:22:00 PM »
$200k+ x 30 years - 33k x 3 years.
$40k+ x 30 years - 9k x 3 years.

If only we had a CPA to let us know what is the better choice!

In all seriousness, trashing the loan debt of ABA law school graduates doesn't make much sense.  It is a wise investment in lifetime earning power.

Bob Loblaw Esq.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2007, 07:35:51 PM »
... in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

Since a majority of them come from ABA approved schools, we agree that ABA certification doesn't really act as an effective screening device for the ultimate quality of the lawyer?

I do agree that for whether logical or not, the school name will carry weight.  Ultimate, you hope that competence will win the day, even if it is an up hill fight.

Agreed. I would argue, however, that the percentage of crappy lawyers graduated from a particular institution increases as you slide down the scale of selectivity in admissions. So I wouldn't say that the generalizations one draws from the school's name is totally illogical on the whole. Although, as with any stereotype, a given species from within the genus might defy the presumption.


...here's what I found on the selectivity (from the NOVUS site)

A Bachelor's degree is not required for JD Law Admission. The Law School requires only one of the following to be admitted to Novus Law SchoolSchool of Law:

 
An Associateís Degree or

60 semester units or

Passed School Exam or

Five years professional or technical management or administrative experience

I am not sure exactly what "passed school exam" means, but I suppose it is some sort of competency test. Then again, maybe not, as it seems that you could work a part time gig answering phones for a couple years and have the requisite qualifications. 


StevePirates

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • View Profile
    • JollyLawger
    • Email
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2007, 11:40:51 PM »
the ABA doesn't require a JD candidate to hold a BA either.  Just 3/4ths of the units.  the JD is a misnomer.  It was originally an LL.B. , leading to an LL.M, and ultimately to an SJD.

But since LL.B was as far as most went, they made it a professional doctoral, like an M.D.

My own personal stance is that if you're smart enough to pass the bar, and are the king of studying on your own, then it can't hurt.  At the end of the day, if you pass the bar, you pass the bar.   But if you're smart enough to pass the bar after going online, you should be smart enough to get into a traditional law school.

Basically it's a catch 22.  If you need to go there because of your lack of selectability, then they won't do you any good.  If you are so good that it doesn't matter where you go, then you could easily go to a regular school.  This is especially true in California.

uart

  • Guest
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2007, 09:06:29 PM »
But since LL.B was as far as most went, they made it a professional doctoral, like an M.D.

I though that they made it a professional doctoral because, unlike in other countries, US law schools were a graduate-level degree?

Alltruth

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2007, 11:30:43 PM »
I just wanted to write something here because I think it is absolutely ridiculous for ABA students to critize DL students. For one, we ALL take the bar exam. Just because you attend Harvard or Yale doesn't mean you will pass the bar OR even be a good attorney.

Can't argue with you there


 
Quote
ABA schools are very expensive because of how much it costs the school to get approval. Again....nothing to do with the teaching methods....so what if you have a bigger library! I would also like to inform everyone that MANY individuals, including Abraham Lincoln, learned law on there own. This is NOT medical school....it can be done through self-study. One can argue that you need moot court....No, you simply go to your local court house and ask to observe. You inform them that you are a law student and that you would like to sit in.

I'd say the law is a little more complex now than when good ol' Abe Lincoln learned it. Back in the day, people became lawyers by apprenticing with other lawyers. Nowadays I'd rather have professors hash through the complexities of the law than try to pick up a book and do it myself. While the third year of law school is completely useless and a way for schools to suck more loan money out of you, I think the first two years teach you a way of thinking that you'd be hard pressed to learn on your own.

And you don't need moot court, or law review, or any of the other extracurricular activities. However, alumni connections and on campus networking activities are things that tend to be very helpful, and things which you won't get from an online law learning process.

Quote
Besides, law school teaches you NOTHING about actually practicing the law....why the hell do you think larger, more civilized states like California and New York have law office study programs???? Because they KNOW that going to an ABA school is NOT required....Get Real.

By the way, the California Bar Exam is the HARDEST in the United States...actually the BABY BAR is harder than some states actual bar exam. SO if you think DL students are retard or unable to make it in an ABA school than why are we PASSING THE HARDEST BAR IN THE U.S.????????


Hmm...then why do you continue to mention later on in your soapbox piece that you're passing "the hardest bar in the US?" Does passing the hardest bar in the US prepare you for being a lawyer?

Quote
I cant stand these people who hide behind the ABA accredidation....deep down inside they hate the fact that DL students will graduate with zero debt while they are down 120k without a job.

I think you can't stand the fact that you were never admitted to an ABA accredited school, and are destined to sock it to everyone that is happy with their choice to attend an ABA accredited school. I can relate to you. I didn't get into any of my desired choices b/c of my LSAT, grinded it out at a T4, and I'm now at my initial first choice. I can now say F-you to all the T2's and other T3's that didn't admit me...just like you can say F-you to all the "stupid ABA law schools" that didn't admit you

Quote
Please...I have an MBA, CPA and a BA.

Ok...we get it. You've accomplished a lot...You've done other types of graduate work. You'll probably make a fine attorney. Step down from the soapbox.

Quote
Doing law school online has allowed me to continue working in my current profession while pursuing my ultimate dream.  My advice is to stop being jealous and congratulate those who made a better choice by choosing a DL school. Get a life....and to those who are current DL students...Keep up the hard work.

No...it seems like you've already congratulated yourself enough that there's no way any of us could possibly fit in any more congrats. Doing law school online has been a choice that has worked out well for you. Going to ABA accredited schools has been a choice that has worked out well for the vast majority of us. Yet you proclaim that getting your degree online is a better choice than going to an ABA accredited school on the basis of time and money alone. What about the students who are receiving full rides at their current schools? What about the part time students who are receiving full rides who are able to continue their employment (like yourself)?

Call me crazy, but I'd bet that the average ABA accredited grad will have not only more employment opportunities coming out of school, but more lucrative ones at that. The $120K  (give or take) in loans could very well be worth every penny once we hit the job market. With a decent salary, there's no reason that all of us will have to live on pork n' beans just to pay for the cost of our education.

At the end of the day, I understand where you're coming from. I think online degrees will be the wave of the future, and I think your program could very well produce some fine lawyers who earn great livings. But if you are so firmly convinced that your decision was the right one to make...do you really (a) need confirmation from internet forum posters, and (b) need to act high and mighty to prove a point?
What is so complicated about the law? You have lawyers in the United Kingdom who are lawyers on an undergraduate degree. You are not talking rocket science and the law is no more complicated than any other discipline and what is taught in U. S. law schools could be easily taught in a 4-year undergraduate program. Your credentials tell me that you donít have much faith in yourself since you have to hide behind academic credentials.