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What was the difference between your average preptest score and the real LSAT?

>+5
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0
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I didn't take any practice tests.
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Author Topic: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?  (Read 38229 times)

gibbsale

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2006, 04:28:24 AM »
If age is the major issue, why is the age of consent 16 in the relevant jurisdictions?


 If my perspective is skewed, it is because our culture's debate about this issue is skewed. As I said, we can debate ethical improprieties, sure, but a 16 year-old resident of Florida or Washington, DC can consent to sex. So we are not debating pedophilia, certainly, and not even statutory rape. So what is the issue? Is it abuse of authority? Is it the gender of the alleged victims? Because if the issue is age, state age of consent laws should reflect that. And I am certain that not all states define consent as beginning at 18.
 
 If age is the issue, it is a question of ethics, not law. And if the law deems 16 year olds capable of consent, and consensual sex is not to be frowned upon, what is the debate? Is it abuse of power? Coercion? Or is it the fact that the Foley is gay?

 Not an easy question. If the issue is the gender of the pages, then implicit in that judgment is a recognition that it would not have been as bad if the pages were female, hardly a great position for Republicans to take. If the issue is age, what in the hell is wrong with our laws? Shouldn't Floridians excuse Foley's conduct, then, because the Florida legislature made a judgment about the age of consent?

 Or is the issue the fact that this was done over the internet, and Foley and his allies in Congress criminalized solicitation for sexual activities with someone under 18 over the internet? If that is the case, would in-person statements have been acceptable?

 A confused issue, because our debate over this kind of conduct is confused. And our culture (as reflected by trophy wives and pop stars) is profoundly confused. Even the puritans in the GOP are confused, because they appear to be suggesting that this is A) the product of a gay GOP conspiracy, B) the result of Republicans not wanting to appear anti-gay or C) election-year manuvering on the part of the Democrats...although admittedly all parties involved are Republicans. Option D, I suppose, is all of the above. That speaks volumes for the party of "personal responsibility."

 Skewed? Me? I think something is skewed, but I do not think it is my perspective.

 

 

m a h m u d

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2006, 07:36:55 PM »
"Now there are dozens of calls for House Speaker Dennis Hastert to step down. As you know, Hastert was a former gym teacher and boys' wrestling coach. To which Mark Foley said, 'Why would anybody quit a dream job like that?'." --Jay Leno

SherriBrown

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2006, 08:10:29 PM »

If age is the major issue, why is the age of consent 16 in the relevant jurisdictions?

If my perspective is skewed, it is because our culture's debate about this issue is skewed. As I said, we can debate ethical improprieties, sure, but a 16 year-old resident of Florida or Washington, DC can consent to sex. So we are not debating pedophilia, certainly, and not even statutory rape. So what is the issue? Is it abuse of authority? Is it the gender of the alleged victims? Because if the issue is age, state age of consent laws should reflect that. And I am certain that not all states define consent as beginning at 18.
 
If age is the issue, it is a question of ethics, not law. And if the law deems 16 year olds capable of consent, and consensual sex is not to be frowned upon, what is the debate? Is it abuse of power? Coercion? Or is it the fact that the Foley is gay?

Not an easy question. If the issue is the gender of the pages, then implicit in that judgment is a recognition that it would not have been as bad if the pages were female, hardly a great position for Republicans to take. If the issue is age, what in the hell is wrong with our laws? Shouldn't Floridians excuse Foley's conduct, then, because the Florida legislature made a judgment about the age of consent?

Or is the issue the fact that this was done over the internet, and Foley and his allies in Congress criminalized solicitation for sexual activities with someone under 18 over the internet? If that is the case, would in-person statements have been acceptable?

A confused issue, because our debate over this kind of conduct is confused. And our culture (as reflected by trophy wives and pop stars) is profoundly confused. Even the puritans in the GOP are confused, because they appear to be suggesting that this is A) the product of a gay GOP conspiracy, B) the result of Republicans not wanting to appear anti-gay or C) election-year manuvering on the part of the Democrats...although admittedly all parties involved are Republicans. Option D, I suppose, is all of the above. That speaks volumes for the party of "personal responsibility."

Skewed? Me? I think something is skewed, but I do not think it is my perspective.


gibb, It's not about Foley being gay. Foley is a pedophile.

"He's gay! Oh, okay." This scandal is truly a despicable and revolting episode. First, he resigned in response to an ABC story disclosing his email and internet messages to underage Capitol Hill pages. Then he said he was going into an alcohol rehabilitation program, a la Mel Gibson. Finally, he said that he was molested by a priest as a child. While there seems to be a new, shocking revelation about Mark Foley every hour, his latest gambit is perhaps the most insulting. Foley's lawyer acknowledged for the first time that the former congressman is gay, saying the disclosure was part of his client's recovery.

While I certainly recommend coming out to every closeted gay person, by making his orientation a part of this sordid tale, Mark Foley puts every gay person in the crosshairs of every American who cannot distinguish between pedophilia and homosexuality. He insinuates that being gay is a sickness that requires sympathy and that explains his criminal behavior. There is nothing more insulting to gay Americans than having the finger of blame pointed squarely at them for something that has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. The Republican spin machine is working overtime to distract Americans from what is really going on — another Republican scandal. (How much more can go wrong for those in control of our country?) The Catholic Church did it and now our leadership is doing it. They are making it about being gay rather than being a pedophile.

Such blurring of facts touches the society's internalized homophobia and recalls the days when homosexuality was classified as a sickness. While the world has moved beyond that misunderstanding, the anti-gay right still uses that bludgeon by deliberately confusing gay and pedophile. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a spike in support for anti-marriage amendments in the states where they are on the ballots. This is the direct effect of message blurring. One tactic is confusing the legal issue by creating moral approbation of homosexuality.

In 1994, a study by Dr. Carole Jenny of the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center appeared in Pediatrics, a peer-reviewed journal. The subjects were 269 sexually abused children seen at Denver Children's Hospital over one year. Heterosexuals molested more than 99% of the girls in the study. Of that number, heterosexual males who knew their victims molested 80%. Heterosexuals molested 98% of the boys in the study. Of that number, heterosexual males who knew their victims molested 75 percent. Gays aren't the problem, pedophiles are, no matter what the Catholic Church or the Republican leadership say.

Foley's no gay. He's a pedophile.

gejco

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END THE CONGRESSIONAL PAGE PROGRAM IMMEDIATELY!
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2006, 07:21:29 AM »
If age is the major issue, why is the age of consent 16 in the relevant jurisdictions?


 If my perspective is skewed, it is because our culture's debate about this issue is skewed. As I said, we can debate ethical improprieties, sure, but a 16 year-old resident of Florida or Washington, DC can consent to sex. So we are not debating pedophilia, certainly, and not even statutory rape. So what is the issue? Is it abuse of authority? Is it the gender of the alleged victims? Because if the issue is age, state age of consent laws should reflect that. And I am certain that not all states define consent as beginning at 18.
 
 If age is the issue, it is a question of ethics, not law. And if the law deems 16 year olds capable of consent, and consensual sex is not to be frowned upon, what is the debate? Is it abuse of power? Coercion? Or is it the fact that the Foley is gay?

 Not an easy question. If the issue is the gender of the pages, then implicit in that judgment is a recognition that it would not have been as bad if the pages were female, hardly a great position for Republicans to take. If the issue is age, what in the hell is wrong with our laws? Shouldn't Floridians excuse Foley's conduct, then, because the Florida legislature made a judgment about the age of consent?

 Or is the issue the fact that this was done over the internet, and Foley and his allies in Congress criminalized solicitation for sexual activities with someone under 18 over the internet? If that is the case, would in-person statements have been acceptable?

 A confused issue, because our debate over this kind of conduct is confused. And our culture (as reflected by trophy wives and pop stars) is profoundly confused. Even the puritans in the GOP are confused, because they appear to be suggesting that this is A) the product of a gay GOP conspiracy, B) the result of Republicans not wanting to appear anti-gay or C) election-year manuvering on the part of the Democrats...although admittedly all parties involved are Republicans. Option D, I suppose, is all of the above. That speaks volumes for the party of "personal responsibility."

 Skewed? Me? I think something is skewed, but I do not think it is my perspective.

 

The issue is man/boy sexual relations, which are inherently unequal and disadvantageous to one party (the boy). The society should promote equal sexual relationships, which are, in general, those between men/women of roughly the same age. Foley was of an age to be the page's father. Such "dads" may be fun, but they're too old to have the best of intentions in their hearts when playing with their capable-to-consent-to-a-sexual-relation -- legally speaking -- "sons."

gibbsale

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2006, 11:53:36 AM »
Fine, gejco, that is a fair point. Hence, coercion, abuse of authority, etc. as I noted in earlier posts. But frankly, that is not really the debate we are having, because many if not most states set their age of consent below 18. My points are 1) this is not pedophilia, as these were teenagers, 2) the ethical dimension has nothing to do with legal consent and 3) the reaction is disproportionate because of the gender of the pages, not because of the age. I do not think, frankly, there would be as much outrage if the pages were female. The wording of your own post suggests as much, as you refer to man/boy relationships (alluding to the sinister image of a group like NAMBLA), as opposed to say, adult/teenager relationships. Is the issue miraculously resolved if the pages were 18 or 19? I do not think so. Is it resolved if the gender of the page is female? To some people, it would appear so.

 And Sherri, Foley is not, by definition, a pedophile. The pages are all teenagers; pedophiles are attracted to children who have not gone through puberty. That is not what we are talking about. Foley maintained adult relationships with other men, so yes he is gay. Now obviously not all gay men have sex with teenage boys or are attracted to teenage boys, just as all straight men do not have sex with teenage girls, nor are they all particularly attracted to teenage girls.

 And yes, Foley is trying to make it seem as though his homosexuality had something to do with his behavior (apart from the gender of the pages, that is), or alcohol, past sexual abuse by a priest, etc. He is certainly rationalizing it, and you are right, that is offensive and false. I am not denying that. But the point you made about the Republican spin on this illustrates my point: with Foley, much of the outrage has nothing to do with the age of the victims, but their gender. And that is the hypocrisy that is captivating both parties; I doubt Democrats want the age of consent laws raised in every jurisdiction to 18 (for good reason; statutory rape law is a nightmare as it is), and I doubt many Republicans want it raised except for gay sex (although that strategy failed in Kansas).

 I think Foley's behavior is inexcusable. He abused a position of authority over these pages, putting them in a position where they had to go along with his advances (he was a fairly powerful Republican, after all) or risk their political development. And I think gejco's point is worthwhile, on an ethical if not legal plane, because I do not know that you can have meaningful consent when the age difference is so stark and the other person is so young. But "roughly the same age" is not a standard, and as I mentioned before, trophy wives are pretty pervasive. Professors have sex with students at university. I could go on.

 But when it comes down to it, all sides are exploiting the gender of the victims. Ask yourself this: if it was a teenage girl, would it have been such a boon to Democrats?

 

theworldinahand

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2006, 12:15:12 AM »

But when it comes down to it, all sides are exploiting the gender of the victims. Ask yourself this: if it was a teenage girl, would it have been such a boon to Democrats?


Enter Clinton and Monika Lewinski. The cut-n-paste guy will surely provide something to look into. Enter cut-n-paste guy.

pruritis

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2006, 07:11:24 PM »
Lewinski was not an underage child when she sucked Clinton off. She was 22 years old.
When I dance they call me macarena
and the boys they say that I'm buena
they all want me, they can't have me
So they all come and dance beside me
move with me jam with me
and if your good i take you home with me

bucketlaw

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2006, 06:39:32 PM »
The sugar daddy and the house boy, the older gay man and his baby-faced companion, is a gay paradigm that traces back centuries. It is rooted in the long history of homosexual stealth-English lords who carried on with young kitchen hands, prominent married men who found young underlings at the office. Before the 1960s, gay relationships were plagued by radical inequalities of income, education, social class and age. Because of the nature of finding gay partners, older, established men often took up with unresponsive, sometimes homicidal proletarian gay youth. As homosexuality has won wider acceptance in American society, gay relationships have come to mirror most heterosexual relationships: a union of social and economic equals.

But the sugar daddy-"kept" boy pattern persists in two ways. Many still-closeted gay men are forced to pay for the companionship of boys who prey on them. This is not without danger: a few years ago, a prominent, secretly gay, 55-year-old New York real estate lawyer, David Schwartz, was stabbed to death by an 18-year-old street hustler in a seedy Bronx motel room. And some openly gay men enjoy "daddy-son" relationships as an erotic spoof of the old paradigm. Sugar daddies come in all sexual orientations, of course. There's always going to be a small segment of the population-gay or straight-who are interested in much younger partners. Sugar daddies and young boys are no more common among gays than older straight men going after trophy wives. Gay culture, like straight, worships youth. It's the same as Jack Kent Cooke and Marlene.

This has been going on for years, I mean since the ancient Greeks, honey," says the manager of the Townhouse, a New York City bar where handsome young men meet older gentlemen. For example, San Diego's high-end gigolos accompany their older mates to very sophisticated parties where the best food and the best drinks are served. In their minds, these older gentlemen know they can't go to the gay bars, they can't go to the gay restaurants, but they can buy these young men. Some older men feel unable to go to the gay clubs that attract the youngest crowd because there's this perception that older gay men are going after young boys and the minute an older man goes near a young man, they're branded as pedophiles. There's a huge divide between one generation of gay men and the next.

The bartender at a gay club is in his mid-twenties. He says he makes about $100 a night in tips, mostly from older customers. But not long ago, he says, an older man offered him $50,000 just to sit around a pool in Palm Springs. The barkeep says he spurned the offer. "I have morals," he says. "Because I want to be in control of my life. Because I have self-respect." Despite the revolution in gay relationships, plenty of young men remain willing, even eager, to attach themselves to older men with money. Some of the young men are products of poor rural or urban communities in which homosexuality is still kept under wraps, boys who come to the big city and find both financial support and sexual license from older men who seem to know the ropes. On the streets of Washington and in gay neighborhoods around the nation, the sugar daddy scene is no joke.

Atan upstairs club at 17th and R streets NW, Top 40 music plays softly in the background as men circulate around the bar. A man in his mid-20s dressed in jeans and a black shirt arrives with several friends. He has Italian movie star looks. He bumps into an elderly man who looks infirm. They chat, introduce each other to their friends. Within 20 minutes, the young men slip out of the bar-accompanied by the elderly gent. Jamie, 22, dressed in a Burberry blazer, sips a vodka tonic as he watches the intergenerational pickup. "They are going to roll him good," he says. "When these boys see these men, they see dollar signs."

The club is "sugar daddy heaven," says Jamie, an Alexandria schoolteacher."You can work those men right out of their jeans. The difference for me is that I went to college, to Columbia. I'm not a stupid guy. I'm not poor. They treat the boys like [dirt]. I have a friend who's with a sugar daddy. He has to stay in his room. He'll do anything for money." The sugar daddies Jamie knows are "older men waiting to recapture part of their youth. They want to party. It's like a midlife crisis thing for gay men." Hans Conley, 45, works in the travel industry in New York City and recently ended a relationship with a 25-year-old man who had come to New York to try to become a model. The two met at a bar and while they were together, they lived at Conley's apartment. "I paid for everything," Conley says. The relationship ended when the young man decided that he perhaps was not gay. "It fulfills a void-loneliness, I guess," Conley says of hooking up with and supporting a younger man.

But sugar daddy relationships inevitably falter, Conley believes. "My perception is that the [younger partners] get tired of selling themselves -- and that is exactly what they are doing -- and then it becomes a type of rebellion. They are ashamed of what they do and realize there is no future in it." In Washington, sugar daddies often find mates at bars in Georgetown or on 17th Street NW rather than in the more competitive and raunchy confines of the gay club strip around Half Street SW. "You go to places where there is money," says Ron, 40, a formerly kept man who now frequents the city's bars. "This is a political city. They're not stupid. In D.C., there's lots of escort services, and older guys will just call up and work through those."

Ron lives in a Dupont Circle apartment decorated with posters of crouching naked men holding chains. "Whoever's paying, they're in control," he said. "If I'm paying, you're mine. You have to do whatever I say. When I say jump, you jump. If an older guy meets somebody, and they're what he wants, he's gonna try to take care of them. "I've been taken care of, but it wasn't really what I wanted," Ron said. Eventually, he quit the scene, in part because a kept man is on the wrong end of a sometimes-predatory power relationship. "I was raised from a good family. I don't have to have someone to take care of me. I knew it wasn't right. And eventually I was the one who had to pay for it." At New York's Townhouse, the scene is hopping. The East Side bar looks like a Midwestern hotel lounge, decorated in neutral shades and dark woods. It's a place where older men feel comfortable approaching men half their age.

"As long as two people are happy and no one is getting hurt, what's the harm in that?" asks the 38-year-old manager, who declined to be named. "If you're a gay older male and you have money, there are certainly places where they can buy things. As long as you're making a purchase in that direction, who wouldn't want to sleep with a 24-year-old hard body? It's a human thing." Younger guys are interested in older guys because of intelligence, and a lot of times older guys are more mellow about things," says the Townhouse coat check man, Duane Bousfield, 37. "It's not all looks or sex. Patrick Suraci, a Manhattan clinical psychologist and author of "Male Sexual Armor," has treated both sugar daddies and "boy toys" and has seen some relationships that actually worked for a time. "The younger one gets money, cars, clothes, whatever he wants," Suraci says. "The older one is getting sex, attention and prestige ... He won the trophy. I can have him and you can't."

But the younger partner "is generally very narcissistic. In the beginning, his pleasure comes from knowing he's so beautiful, so attractive, so charming and has such great sexual skill that someone will pay money for him. But narcissism is usually a wound from childhood. If they do reach a crisis point where they realize their life is a fraud, they rarely seek help. It's one of the hardest type cases to treat. Money becomes such an aphrodisiac to them. The crisis typically arises as the gigolo's looks begin to fade. "I've studied a lot of these hustlers, and they always are saying they're going to go to college, they're going to have a profession," Suraci says. And it never happens, and then it's too late.

exe

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2006, 08:11:10 PM »

Some older men feel unable to go to the gay clubs that attract the youngest crowd because there's this perception that older gay men are going after young boys and the minute an older man goes near a young man, they're branded as pedophiles.


It's not because they are branded as pedophiles that they can't go to the gay bars .. it's because they are branded as gay that they don't go to those bars ..

rosebud

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Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2006, 10:05:16 PM »
The Abominable Crimes of Nero

Another gay Roman emperor was the infamous Nero, who assured his ascension to the throne by having his brother Britannicus murdered in 55 A.D. 4 years later he had his mother murdered as well. Of Nero, Chris Scarre, author of Chronicle of the Roman Emperors, writes:

Quote
Nero divorced his first wife, Octavia, and then had her killed. He married Poppaea, but in a fit of rage while she was pregnant, he kicked her to death. He married a 3d wife, but then he left her for a boy who resembled Poppaea. While it is believed that Nero did not start the great fire that destroyed much of Rome, it did clear the land he needed on which to build his Golden House, a palace of such size, richness, and majesty as had never been seen before. The excesses he showered upon himself, his brutality, and his outrageous behavior finally drove away his last supporters.


Other accounts hold that Nero had been rumored to be the arsonist, and that he initiated extreme cruelties against the early Christians after blaming them for the fire. Interestingly, Russell does not devote a chapter of his book to this unspeakably wicked gay despot. He makes only indirect reference to him by mentioning that, with the exception of Claudius, all of the emperors of the Julio-Claudian period were homosexual. The Roman historian Tacitus writes:

Quote
... in order to abolish that rumor, Nero falsely accused and executed with the most exquisite punishments those people called Christians ...And perishing they were additionally made into sports: they were killed by dogs by having the hides of beasts attached to them, or they were nailed to crosses or set aflame, and, when the daylight passed away, they were used as nighttime lamps ... people began to pity these sufferers, because they were consumed not for the public good but on account of the fierceness of one man.


Included among the other gay emperors were Caligula and the tyrannical Tiberius, who did not trust the Senate and saw to the assassination of dozens of equestrians and Senators. Caligula was known to be insane and was famous for excessive cruelty, incestuous relationships with his sisters, and the plan to make his horse a consul. Caligula also ordered his cousin Gemellus killed in order to avoid having to share the powers of the throne with him.
 
Nero As Beast of the Apocalypse

Friedrich Engels, in his work "On the History of Early Christianity," writes about 1st-century Christians and their beliefs regarding the Beast of the Apocalypse. Described but not explicitly identified in the Book of Revelation, the Beast was expected to be the resurrected spirit of the criminally insane Nero. Engels relied upon interpretations of Revelation by German biblical scholars. As viewed by Engels, Revelation is all about the early Christians' desire for harsh vengeance against Nero for the cruel persecution he initiated against their martyred brothers after the fire swept through Rome. Revelation incorporates metaphors based upon the number 7, because of the 7 hills of Rome. Further, there were 7 first-century Roman emperors. The Beast of 7 Heads was expected to be the resurrected spirit of one of these emperors. Of additional interest in Revelation is God's opening of the 7 seals. Revelation says that the opening of each seal is followed by all sorts of miraculous menacing signs, and "when the 5th seal is opened, John sees under the alter of God the souls of the martyrs of Christ who were slain for the word of God," and who are crying for vengeance. The 5th emperor in the succession beginning with Augustus, the 1st of the 7, was the degenerate madman Nero.

But there's more. Engels points out that, according to the numerological system for letters of the Hebrew alphabet, the phrase Emperor Nero adds up to 666. In Revelation this is the number of the Beast. Further, he says that this association with Nero was commonly known among Christians of the time. In plain terms, they hated Nero and wanted God to unleash his wrath upon him. It is reasonable to suspect that part of their resentment was fueled by the effects of centuries of oppression by the homosexual Graeco-Roman patriarchs who had made a practice of sexually abusing male slaves, boys, and prisoners of war. Engels emphasizes that the early Christians were largely the underdogs of society and included many slaves and emancipated slaves -- the very class of people most vulnerable to sexual exploitation by homosexuals.

St. Augustine the Woman-Hater

Another prominent homosexual character from the days of the Roman Empire was St. Augustine (354-430 AD), described by Russell as "one of the greatest fathers of the Roman Catholic Church, a thinker who changed the course of Western civilization." Russell continues:

Quote
He adumbrated notions of sin, perversion, and the relationship between good and evil that have so permeated our thought ... Augustine condemned most sexual acts, even those performed by married couples. Sex for procreation was, for Augustine, the only moral sexual act -- and even that was distasteful ... More than anyone else, Augustine furthered Christianity's long attempt to suppress any physical expressions of love except those that resulted in children.

Augustine appears to bear a great deal of responsibility for the Catholic Church's long-standing tradition of teaching women to fear and despise their sexuality. Offering more evidence of male homosexual contempt for effeminacy, Russell also described Augustine as "a thorough-going misogynist," who was "particularly disgusted by men who allowed their bodies to be used 'as that of a woman.'" Russell says that Augustine engaged in homosexual affairs when he was young but later felt "disgust" at his younger self.


At the time Rome fell in the West, its sexual legislation was deeply repressive. After Constantine a series of Christian emperors imposed heavy penalties on homosexual acts. In 390. for example. Valentinian II decreed:

Cod.Theod. IX. Vii. 6: All persons who have the shameful custom of condemning a manís body, acting the part of a womanís to the sufferance of alien sex (for they appear not to be different from women), shall expiate a crime of this kind in avenging flames in the sight of the people.