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Author Topic: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?  (Read 128878 times)

GA-fan

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #180 on: April 25, 2007, 08:03:50 AM »
Read it again! I said in my second sentence I don't completely agree!

getitright

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #181 on: April 25, 2007, 07:49:56 PM »
It doesn't really matter whether you agree or not, raven!

surfshady

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #182 on: April 26, 2007, 03:59:15 AM »

MBA graduates decry the degree as a joke, the biggest waste of time and money imaginable, a confidence game. No one disputes that an MBA from a highly prestigious school such as Harvard, Wharton, Chicago, or Stanford can lead to high pay, but that this is because those schools are so hard to get into (and so costly once you get there), and that only the best and brightest fast-trackers have a shot. In other words, they are people who most likely would have succeeded whether they went to B-school or not. Overall, the evidence suggests that for most managers a couple of years of extra work experience, not more time spent in classrooms, will pay off better than a graduate business degree.


An acquaintance of mine works at a real estate private equity company having experienced success in his two years there (promoted twice to Director). It's very hard for him to leave his job because he enjoys the industry, likes the work he's doing and sees room for future growth. He was thinking that since he was doing well in an industry he liked, he should do an MBA to further his education. However given his profile he has been getting advice to apply to a top-tier MBA school.

The thing is that his bosses think that if he leaves and takes 2 years off, even if it's at Harvard, he would be worse off than staying and working those 2 years.

exnihilo

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #183 on: April 26, 2007, 04:22:26 AM »

The thing is that his bosses think that if he leaves and takes 2 years off, even if it's at Harvard, he would be worse off than staying and working those 2 years.


But of course, he does not need an MBA -- the private equity industry pays top dollars and as a director he should be making at least $100K. It does not pay to attend a top-ranked school. That's because the likes of Wharton and Harvard tend to attract high earners, making it harder to get a big salary bump at graduation and recoup the investment in an MBA. How hard? For Harvard grads, the breakeven point won't come until 2020, or about 20 years shy of retirement!!!



dragoncloak

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #184 on: April 26, 2007, 05:03:47 AM »
Is it just money you people are after in your life? If so, then MBA is not worth it if you like your current job and all. But as with anything else in life, you cannot just summarize MBA into ROI, Cost of Capital or IRR. As with marriage, you don't normally go around trying to find the cost of capital and ROI -- no one would get married or have kids! 

Yet, a top MBA is a signaling devices for potential employers. The MBA, while costly, does have its intrinsic value even if you learn nothing -- you network and make great contacts. It is sometimes difficult to get into a career which you will never able to attain without the degree. Take VC for example, every one in VC world will say you don't need a MBA to get to their position but 80%+ have them. So they all got introduced into the industry by friends. Where do you think they get their friends from? The MBA from a top school is just an insurance paper. Nothing more and nothing less. Is it worth the premium? IMHO, absolutely.   

As for why so many smart men and women go to business school? Men love it since it's 2 years of partying from i-banking/consulting where you were treated like a monkey. Women love it since this is the place where they can hunt down guys that are otherwise hard to find elsewhere. Business schools are not exactly casinos -- but similar to casinos you have fun while paying.

browsingatwork

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Think carefully before taking the plunge
« Reply #185 on: April 26, 2007, 05:09:28 AM »
The myth of the six-figure-plus salary for an MBA graduate seems to be emblazoned into the collective unconscious. Every MBA website mentions it, the Business Week and US News and World Report articles report on it, and every watercooler kibbitzing session on the topic of the MBA invariably broaches it. This six-figure salary is often much higher than that of your typical MBA applicant. The Graduate Management Admissions Council estimates that an MBA degree provides an increase of 35% in salary pre and post MBA.

These rumors, conjectures, and statistics provide a quite alluring draw, so let's explore them a bit. In all fairness, there are many individuals who receive high salaries upon graduation. My colleagues who have pursued the finance and consulting paths have amassed quite a respectable quantity of what the Notorious BIG refers to as "paper". One of my friends working in finance even managed to pull down a $500,000 bonus in 2003. Enough said.

Unfortunately, however, there is a flip side. Median compensation numbers are inflated a bit since the schools only release statistics on SELF-REPORTED information, and not all graduates reply to the survey. For example, the $115,000 median income from the most recent Wharton career report is the average of the 600 respondents, not of the 778 graduates. This disconnect introduces what statisticians refer to as a "non-response bias", meaning that when it comes to reporting something as ego-sensitive as compensation, people receiving low salaries are unlikely to respond. Such a bias implies that the TRUE average compensation is probably somewhat lower. To give a real world example, I personally chose not to reveal my salary information to the Career Management office because I felt slightly emasculated in admitting to my relatively meager remuneration.

Secondly, one must beware of what I refer to as the "Keanu Reeves Factor" (in homage to his riveting performance in A Devil's Advocate). The Keanu Reeves factor dictates that in order to earn these six-figure salaries, one typically needs to land a job in investment banking or management consulting where one must sell one's soul to the devil. This underworld reference is not intended to refer to the "insert-your-favorite-corporate-crook-here" MBA graduates of yesteryear, but rather to the infernal quality of life that entry level consulants and investment bankers lead. The hours are really, really, long and you completely surrender control over your life. A good friend of mine at a major investment bank said it best in a recent informal interview, "It sucks even worse than people say it sucks."

Thirdly (if that's actually a word), the return on investment might not be as high as you might think. If you will excuse the irony of using a concept learned in business school to refute the value of business school, please consider the following example:

Assume that GMAC is correct and that an MBA engenders a 35% salary increase. Also assume that the $115K salary is correct. If one were to take into account the changes in marginal tax rates, the years of lost income, et cetera, the change in Net Present Value for your ten years after business school would be -$53,000. This figure is primarily driven by the fact that the student loan repayments for such a hefty sum would have to be a staggering, non-tax deductible $1,500/ month (assuming a 10 year repayment period). Put into more simplistic terms, if one were to leave an $85K/year job today for the hope of getting a $115K/year job two years from now, your net yearly take-home pay (after loan repayments) will be actually be LOWER than if you simply stay put for the first several years. You won't even break even until about 12 years from now.

http://mbacaveatemptor.blogspot.com/2005/06/wharton-grads-caveat-emptor-for.html

Consideration

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #186 on: April 26, 2007, 04:18:30 PM »
I am starting law school in the fall and plan on enrolling in the joint degree JD/MBA program. My intentions are to practice securities, corporate, and real estate law in a major metropolitan area. Most books I have read so far concerning securities regulation as well as the SEC's website looks favorably upon obtaining the joint degree. I am wondering how you guys feel about the joint programs versus pursuing one or the other degree. I realize that a great deal of information is learned first hand on the job about securities but I think what is taught in the MBA program lays the foundation for what your mentors will teach you in the firm. Let me know what you guys think.

johns259

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #187 on: April 26, 2007, 06:44:21 PM »
I am starting law in the fall and plan on enrolling in the joint degree JD/MBA program. My intentions are to practice securities, corporate, and real estate law in a major metropolitan area. Most books I have read so far concerning securities regulation as well as the SEC's website looks favorably obtain the joint degree. I am wondering how you guys feel about the joint programs versus pursuing one or the other degree. I realize that a great deal of information is learned first hand on the job about securities but I think what is taught in the MBA program lays the foundation for what your mentors will teach you in the firm. Let me know what you guys think.

Have you thought about just doing a Masters in a specific area of economics or finance. Specialization is the name of the game nowadays.

the outhere brothers

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #188 on: April 26, 2007, 10:06:08 PM »

But of course, he does not need an MBA -- the private equity industry pays top dollars and as a director he should be making at least $100K. It does not pay to attend a top-ranked school. That is because the likes of Wharton and Harvard tend to attract high earners, making it harder to get a big salary bump at graduation and recoup the investment in an MBA. How hard? For Harvard grads, the breakeven point will not come until 2020, or about 20 years shy of retirement!!!





So basically the way they culcate the cost of attending is, for Harvard, e.g.,

tuition & living expenses $74,000 X 2 = $148,000
lost wages                        $70,000 X 2 = $140,000

total                                                $300,000

Seems to me an MBA from a top school is not only not worth it, but you have to be a complete a s s h o l e to go for it ... anyway, I was kinda wondering whether a JD from a top school is worth it when you think in the same terms as above ..
Everyday I see the world
Seems to me it is the same old thing
Everyone in life needs a change
Need something they cannot explain

emmy

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Re: 1 year later....still glad u went to law school?
« Reply #189 on: April 26, 2007, 10:59:53 PM »

Is it just money you people are after in your life? If so, then MBA is not worth it if you like your current job and all. But as with anything else in life, you cannot just summarize MBA into ROI, Cost of Capital or IRR. As with marriage, you don\\\'t normally go around trying to find the cost of capital and ROI -- no one would get married or have kids! 


Women are self-sufficient nowadays and you end up better financially when you marry! As for kids, well, they are definitely a liability, that is why many couples have only one kid, not to mention that they have the latter years after they get married!